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Post by karen69roland on Jun 11, 2005 16:02:18 GMT -5
Roland Talk about unlikely allies I agree totally with what you say if I am reading your posts correctly... Hope this makes sense. BTW Roland if I missed your point(s) I apologise Yes, it make sense Enigma.
Live, when I started to work with GOOD female singers(' never was interested with male)..., my compositions would change a little(not much, but, a little)) because of the fact that it's the singer(a human instrument - voice) who delivers the song..., different than a guitar or a piano, etc... That's why you see Karen(live) do different timing with the melodies..., because in the first place, Richard composed the melodies for a non-human instrument(not all the time, but, most of the time). So, with time, both Richard and Karen aligned/ajusted their craft so it could fit better together. ..., and they became the best at it..., they became... The Carpenters [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow] (Edit = Typo) ..., RC
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 11, 2005 21:36:46 GMT -5
Dave to answer your question the vocals were usually recorded at a different time then the music was. There were a few live recording where everything was recorded together such as "B'wana She No Home" - but for the most part everything was recorded in sections this way Richard was able to focus on each part to piece all together perfectly. btw Dave that version of "Make Believe It's Your First Time" was the second recording. The first recording is from Karen's solo album. As Roland says Richard would write the melodies which were for the instruments (musicians). But Richard also wrote the vocal parts which were for Karen to sing. Richard wrote both the lead and backup vocal parts. I think "Mr. Guder" is one of Richard's very best vocal arrangements. Especially the end part where Karen and Richard do that amazing vocal trade off. Another one of Richard's very best vocal arrangements is on "Johnny Angel" with the way Karen sings the different parts at the opening of the song. This is one of Karen's best performances and one of Richard's very best arrangements for Karen voice.
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 11, 2005 22:32:20 GMT -5
Here is a question and answer from the Fans Speak section of the official website which gives me a clue that Richard had more to do with Karen's vocals than we think. Fan Asks: On Karen’s solo effort STILL CRAZY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, Karen hits a low note at 1:50…is this her lowest note of all time because it sounds really, really low? Richard answers: It's an overdubbed E flat below middle C, same as the opening note of "Only Yesterday". Lowest I had Karen sing was a low D in the song, "A Song For You".
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Post by enigma on Jun 12, 2005 7:36:21 GMT -5
Rick Just a little sidebar about Richard putting together the songs. Were the majority of Carpenters songs not written by other artists? were they not done of demos Richard and/or Karen received? I think they were so would the vocal framework not already be in place with both Richard and Karen tweaking them but still not doing major changes. In the case of Ticket To Ride it is still keeping with the original it sounds like the original in that we know its a remake by listening to Richards arrangement. He did make some significant changes to the songs some very impressive ones but he kept the basic melody you knew it was not an original song by Richard. You may think me foolish but I do not see a major difference between Richards vocal arrangements on the redone songs and the original vocal arrangements when they first came out. Yes he did change them but for me the reason they were almost always better was the way Karen sang them the changed arrangements were secondary for me. Would it not be possible for Karen to hear a demo and tweak it herself with her own interpretation? If the framework is already there based on the demos and original recordings of the songs how can one say that Richard charted them note for note. What you read Rick and what Richard said seem more based on songs he wrote than all carpenter songs. Now I am talking strictly vocal arrangements not other arrangements and production that went into the track. Just a question did Richard write the individual instrument solos or did he tell the player what he was looking for and let the player do his own solo. ( I am thinking of Goodbye To Love where Richard let Tony Peluso do the solo himself Richard did not write that solo note for note was this always the case) Sorry for the long post as usual.
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 12, 2005 10:11:13 GMT -5
Hi Enigma good answers. There is a difference between writing a song and arranging it. Richard did his own arrangements on most every song they recorded. Remember Burt Bacharach saying "Richard made my arrangement sound amateur" - maybe not the exact words Bacharach said - but he said something like that. On "Ticket To Ride" yes you can still recognize the song - but it is an entirely different vocal and musical chart - there are significant differences and Richard wrote that arrangement.
Have you ever heard the original recordings of "This Masquerade" and "A Song For You" by Leon Russell. Yes, pf course the songs are similar sounding but once again in Richard's arrangement there are different notes which Karen sings than Leon Russell and a different vocal phrasing than Russell's.
Same with the very noticeable differences in "There's A Kind Of Hush" - the vocal arrangement from Hermits and C's is different. Richard wrote a vocal for that song to fit Karen's voice. The pauses are in different places. The intonation is completely different - but yes it is recognizable as the same song.
And look at "Please Mr. Postman". Richard's vocal and musical arrangement on this song is completely reworked from what Marvelettes and Beatles did. Yes, it's the same melody and all but there are different ranges and phrasing (phrasing can best described as the place pauses and breaths are taken - that's not a completely accurate description - but part of what phrasing means). anyway Richard's arrangement includes an excellent guitar solo by Tony Peluso. And some awesome backup vocals by both he and Karen.
Another good example of a fine arrangement is "Desperado". Richard defined each instrument clearly. He put in a wonderful harmonica and Karen's vocal was written as deep and dark using lower richer tones than say Linda Ronstadt's recording.
The melody of a song is generally always going to be the same in a remake - it's the arrangement that changes. The arrangement is the placement of the vocals and instruments.
Look at the songs Richard received Grammy nominations for his arrangements "Close To You", "Superstar", "Sing" and "Calling Occupants". None of which he wrote. If he had completely copied the arrangements or didn't make significant enough changes in the arrangements and creativity of the arrangements I highly doubt these songs would have been nominated. (The other song he received a nomination for was "Flat Baroque".
In the question of instrumental solos I am certain he wrote most of them. But obviously there were times when he let the musicians experiment and if he liked what he heard he kept it. But the experimentation was usually with a good amount of input from Richard. After all with the "Goodbye To Love" solo he prodded Tony Peluso on to do something more aggressive. As in the first instance Tony played something he thought would fit onto a Carpenters record. But that's not the arrangement - the arrangement is the fact that Richard thought of putting a guitar solo in that part. That's what the arrangement is. The placing of the vocals and instruments. Yes, Richard wrote alot of this stuff note for note - even on the remakes. But there was some room for Karen and the guys in the band to experiment a bit. But as we remember Richard (and Karen) were perfectionists. so, my guess is there wasn't a whole lot left up to chance. I think most of what we hear is very well crafted and thought out.
Enigma - you mention the reason you liked the remakes by Carpenters better was for the way Karen sang them and not Richard's arrangements. That's fine - but I would consider that personal preference. That still doesn't change the fact that Richard did indeed put together these arrangements. I'm in agreement here primarily why I love most Carpenters remakes better than the orifinals is because of Karen's voice and then secondary Richard's outstanding and very clear musical and vocal arrangments. Some of his arrangments are outstanding. Take for instance the vocal stacking on "I'll Never Fall In Love Again" - that is excellent. Yes, Karen sang it well but it's Richard who was the architect in this vocal and musical arrangement. It sounds great due to Richard and Karen's hard work equally.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 12, 2005 13:13:06 GMT -5
Some excellent information since I posted last, as usual. In Ticket To Ride, on I believe it's the Close To You DVD, Richard tells the tale of how he loves the Major 7th chord, and how he used Maj7 in TTR at various places - and how, in his arrangement, he even changed some chords from major to minor. Not typical. Totally his arrangement. Totally his idea. Arrangement of the song. Poetic license, if you will. NOT the way the Beatles did the tune except for parts of the melody that we all recognize. The Beatles did not have any suspended chords in their rendition of Ticket - Richard did - at the point where Karen et all sing "A-Way, aah". Totally different arrangement. Many changes in that tune. Many. The same is true for Sedaka's Breakin Up is Hard To Do - Richard changed the chord structure in the song. Listen to Sedaka's version when he sings "think of all that we've been through" - the chord changes are different. Arrangement. The flow for Karen and Richard's vocals is essential, and Richard rearranged the chords and obviously, then, the vocal arrangements, to fit the new chords, but the song flows so much better. I love their version and one specific reason is because of this change. Arrangement. I was giving this topic a lot of thought this morning as I was listening to Phil Matson and the PM Singers. There just wasn't any way they went into the studio and didn't know precisely each note they were to sing. And, there were several songs on this album I was listening to where various members scatted a chorus or two. I don't have a clue how much of that was "off the cuff" but know they did have to follow a structure. And, I would guess pretty closely. It made me wonder, though, how much "poetic license" Karen was allowed to take, based, though, on what Richard had laid down for her. She always, always sang her own interpretations - that's not in question here, I don't think. It's only the arrangement that seems to be the issue. And Richard (and later Karen) wrote the arrangements that they knew would work for them. Such great info from everyone. I know I'm learning as we go. Tim
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 12, 2005 14:32:21 GMT -5
Excellent information Tim. thank you. You were able to use the technical terms I was unable to come up with. Another arrangement that I think Richard did a fabulous job on is the Beatles' "Help". It's the same song but from a completely different angle. This morning I listened to Carpenters "Gold". But this time I listened closely to the musicianship. When each instrument would start and end and the diferent points when Karen's (and Richard's) voice would come in and end. I listened for varying volume levels in both the music and the vocals. I listened for the diffrerent ranges of pitch and tone. I even listened for the points when Karen would take a breath. The arrangements and productions are very precise in Carpenters music. It's all done with crystal clarity and definition. Some of what you said Tim makes me think of Manhattan Transfer with their mix of vocals. You just know there was a lot of attention to the detail of their vocal arrangements. They didn't just go into the studio and sing whatever they wanted to sing. It was all very well sculpted.
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Post by karen69roland on Jun 12, 2005 17:10:58 GMT -5
Here is a question and answer from the Fans Speak section of the official website which gives me a clue that Richard had more to do with Karen's vocals than we think. Fan Asks: On Karen’s solo effort STILL CRAZY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, Karen hits a low note at 1:50…is this her lowest note of all time because it sounds really, really low? Richard answers: It's an overdubbed E flat below middle C, same as the opening note of "Only Yesterday". Lowest I had Karen sing was a low D in the song, "A Song For You". I've already gave that awswer in the past and I'm sure that Jim and Tim remember.
My awswer was more complete than Richard's, but, useless to those who are not advanced musicians. In addition to the notes, I gave the degre of the notes and the chord that they are in.
..., and I've also added the song *Because We Are In Love (The Wedding Song)*.
I don't remember in what thread though. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 12, 2005 17:35:35 GMT -5
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Post by karen69roland on Jun 12, 2005 19:03:52 GMT -5
Here, I found what I was refering to... What Richard says, E flat, is the same as what I said, D sharp..., but, with my explanation, it should be called D sharp, 'cause that's what it is.
Note that Richard mentions only *A Song For You*..., he doesn't mention *Because We Are In Love (The Wedding Song)*..., but, he should have. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 13, 2005 0:19:49 GMT -5
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Post by karen69roland on Jun 13, 2005 0:57:49 GMT -5
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Post by Ming on Jun 13, 2005 3:08:50 GMT -5
Roland and Enigma are blue they are moderators. Cam is green he is the forum's Global moderator. I am the administrator with the color red. Just thought the extra colors would add some fun to the forum. Yes, I love the colours. This add some fun to the forum.
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Post by enigma on Jun 13, 2005 7:44:55 GMT -5
First thank you Tim thank you for giving Karen some credit for how the Carpenters songs turned out, It was definitely Karen's interpretation of the songs that made them what they were no matter who arranged them and yes she contributed on the producing side hence the title of either co-producer ore executive producer given to Karen on the albums. Richard did not give Karen these titles because she was his sister or as a token if she did not contribute he would not credit her as a producer she was no puppet. Now on to you Rick I must address this post Hi Enigma good answers. There is a difference between writing a song and arranging it. Richard did his own arrangements on most every song they recorded. Remember Burt Bacharach saying "Richard made my arrangement sound amateur" - maybe not the exact words Bacharach said - but he said something like that. On "Ticket To Ride" yes you can still recognize the song - but it is an entirely different vocal and musical chart - there are significant differences and Richard wrote that arrangement. Have you ever heard the original recordings of "This Masquerade" and "A Song For You" by Leon Russell. Yes, pf course the songs are similar sounding but once again in Richard's arrangement there are different notes which Karen sings than Leon Russell and a different vocal phrasing than Russell's. Same with the very noticeable differences in "There's A Kind Of Hush" - the vocal arrangement from Hermits and C's is different. Richard wrote a vocal for that song to fit Karen's voice. The pauses are in different places. The intonation is completely different - but yes it is recognizable as the same song. And look at "Please Mr. Postman". Richard's vocal and musical arrangement on this song is completely reworked from what Marvelettes and Beatles did. Yes, it's the same melody and all but there are different ranges and phrasing (phrasing can best described as the place pauses and breaths are taken - that's not a completely accurate description - but part of what phrasing means). anyway Richard's arrangement includes an excellent guitar solo by Tony Peluso. And some awesome backup vocals by both he and Karen. Another good example of a fine arrangement is "Desperado". Richard defined each instrument clearly. He put in a wonderful harmonica and Karen's vocal was written as deep and dark using lower richer tones than say Linda Ronstadt's recording. The melody of a song is generally always going to be the same in a remake - it's the arrangement that changes. The arrangement is the placement of the vocals and instruments. Look at the songs Richard received Grammy nominations for his arrangements "Close To You", "Superstar", "Sing" and "Calling Occupants". None of which he wrote. If he had completely copied the arrangements or didn't make significant enough changes in the arrangements and creativity of the arrangements I highly doubt these songs would have been nominated. (The other song he received a nomination for was "Flat Baroque". Enigma - you mention the reason you liked the remakes by Carpenters better was for the way Karen sang them and not Richard's arrangements. That's fine - but I would consider that personal preference. That still doesn't change the fact that Richard did indeed put together these arrangements. I'm in agreement here primarily why I love most Carpenters remakes better than the originals is because of Karen's voice and then secondary Richard's outstanding and very clear musical and vocal arrangements. Some of his arrangements are outstanding. Take for instance the vocal stacking on "I'll Never Fall In Love Again" - that is excellent. Yes, Karen sang it well but it's Richard who was the architect in this vocal and musical arrangement. It sounds great due to Richard and Karen's hard work equally. First I do not know what post you were reading but clearly it was not mine because you missed most if not all my points. First you started talking about Richards arrangements on the song. I did not say the arrangements were identical and that includes the vocals of course they were not but they were similar less so in some cases more so in others but yes they were different. Also I was talking strictly vocals not the arrangement of the song I stated that in my post if you recall. Also you not only misquoted me in the last part of you post but restated what I said in the first place I never said that it was not Richards arrangements that made me like the remakes I said it was secondary to Karen's vocal just like you did and yes by saying "for Me> I am stating a preference. Sorry if this seems hoarse but it seemed the point of my post was missed, Rick I also like the info I am getting in these posts I am learning allot about arranging you seem to have a great deal of knowledge on the technical side of music I am more a feel musician than a technical guru so I am benefiting from you sharing of info. Just one thing when Richard did arrange the vocals would he not know exactly what to expect from Karen. If so why in allot of cases was he surprised when he heard Karen sing the songs? if he precisely arranged every song note for note why would he ever be surprised unless Karen did something that he was not expecting in the song is that not her input into the song? Finally Rick I like thew last sentence of your post and it can apply to everything Karen and Richard did. It was the result of BOTH of their hard work they were a team it was a partnership. That what I meant in the first place when I said be fair to Karen give her the credit she earned and deserves thats all. Rick and others yes Karen is the reason I love the Carpenters yes I feel she often does not get the credit she deserves in the creation of the songs beyond the vocals even if she did not arrange and produce them she did make significant contributions that go unrecognized. When I say that I am taking nothing from Richards incredible abilities and achievements I am just saying its not 100% Richard is all. When all is said and done it is the sum of the parts that made the magic it would not have happened without Richard AND Karen.
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 13, 2005 9:25:10 GMT -5
Enigma, in response to your post. I never said that it was only Richard or only Karen. They both had their part in it. Although I do believe that Richard put more into the muusic part of the Carpenters. After all he was the arranger, conductor and sometimes songwriter. But the finished products Karen's voice outweighs almost anything Richard can do. I just think it's important to recognize Richard's part in all this. As his part is enormous to the Carpenters just as important as Karen's. As for Richard being surprised at what Karen could do. Well gee if you had such a wonderful voice as Karen's recording your songs and arrangements wouldn't you be in awe. I'm sure Karen took what Richard gave her and exceeded his expectations. And I'm sure she did add her own nuances. From experience I know that a musical or vocal arrangement usually changes somewhat during the rehearsal and recording process. The person singing or playing usually adds their own personality to what is written for them. *Sidenote* A producer on a record is the person who finances the project. The producer hires the musicians, rents the studio to record and rehearse. Hires the catering for meals. And makes sure everything is available for the project to happen comfotably and successfully with in a certain budget. The producer takes care of all the business of the project. Including lawyers, managers and such. Hence an executive producer or co-producer helps the producer in the hiring and may also invest some of their own money in the project. Genrally a producer has very little in the actual creating of the music unless the producer is also the arranger or one of the musicians in the band such as Karen and Richard were.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 13, 2005 13:14:03 GMT -5
Whew! First - Roland - yes, I do remember the post you made (and have now found and quoted here) about the lowest note Karen sang on a recording. As I read through the Fan's Ask segment of Richard's website, I wondered why he didn't mention Because We Are In Love, as you had. He only mentioned A Song For You. Thanks for that info my friend. Second - Enigma - OF COURSE Karen deserves more than "some" credit for how the Carpenters songs turned out. I'm not saying in anyway that she doesn't. I don't think Rick is, either - as we've both ended up saying a lot of the same things throughout this post. Karen is the reason many (most) of these songs came out the way they did - that voice! OH, that voice~ that's all Karen, no denying it. I think we're talking apples and oranges here, though. I mean, this thread has gone from the mention of Richard being a Musical Genius to many different arenas. We have both stated our opinions on that topic, so I won't go back there again. But, I have not, in any of this, nor will I ever take away what Karen contributed to the Carpenters. That's not in any way what I have tried to say, and I hope I have not implied that in some way. I'm talking technicalities about the actual putting together of a song. Reread my posts. I don't want to write it all down again, but I think you'll see what I mean. I give Richard credit for that - and that's all I'm trying to do. Karen we know had the wonderful, marvelous voice we all love. Richard had a hand in it too - a big hand. And, initially, that's all I was trying to say. And, as I re-read this entire thread, we've all sort of said the same things, in different ways. I so enjoy how each of us states things a bit differently, but when push comes to shove, most of the time, when you really get to the nuts and bolts of the conversation - we're all thinking along the same lines. Dave, Dave, Dave!!! You are such a hoot. Rick, I think Mr. Guder is a tremendously well crafted song, and a way good vocal arrangement. I'm sort of fond of Tony Peluso's "Sailin' on the Tide", too. I like that arrangement. It's not flamboyant or anything, just a good, solid musical arrangement. Lots of things going on in that song - lots of percussion, lots of vocals. I just think it's a fine arrangement. At the end of the day, to each of you my Carpenters friends, I say thank you for challenging me to think beyond my own little box, and for teaching me something new along the way. (and if I had some of those great little smilies that Roland uses, I'd have used a thumbs up right about here!)
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Post by enigma on Jun 13, 2005 17:42:50 GMT -5
First Tim I was actually complimenting you for giving Karen credit not saying you were taking it away when I said thank you I meant it sincerely. I said that because we were so wraped up in Richard regarding the music that we may have been forgetting Karens part and you pointed out her importance thats what I was referring to when I said thank you. I used the word "some credit" because when we are talking about producing and arranging songs Karens only made some contributions I would doubt Richard would have allowed Karen or anyone to significantly change what he wrote for the song arrangements generally when an artist has a vision for what he wants his song to be he sticks to it. About the lowest note do any of you feel that Karen sang lower one the end of "End Of The World" than "A Song For You" or "The Wedding Song" it seemed to be for me maybe it was the same note just wondering if any of you noticed it. Is that note lower higher or equal to the one Richard was referring to. Just a curiousity here. While I a at it I will give you some arrangements that I feel are his best and there are a few here so bear with me. These include. Ticket To Ride, Nowhere Man, Someday, Mr Guder, Another Song, Superstar, Yesterday Once More (especially the single version), End Of The World, Only Yesterday, Solitaire, I'm Caught Between A Goodbye And I Love You. I Need To Be In Love, Two Sides, Touch Me When We're Dancing. Thats all I can think of these are not necessarily my favorite songs though the majority are but as great as Karens vocals are I just find the arrangements on these songs to enhance them, make them better, even increase the chill factor in alot of them. thats why I feel they are Richards best arrangements.
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Post by karen69roland on Jun 13, 2005 21:32:42 GMT -5
About the lowest note do any of you feel that Karen sang lower one the end of "End Of The World" than "A Song For You" or "The Wedding Song" it seemed to be for me maybe it was the same note just wondering if any of you noticed it. Is that note lower higher or equal to the one Richard was referring to. Just a curiousity here. Enigma... The last note in *The End Of The World* is an E..., same note as the first note in *Yesterday Once More* or as the first note in *(They Long To Be) Close To You*. ..., two notes higher(two half steps/ or one step) above D, the note in *Because We Are In Love (The Wedding Song) and *A Song For You*.
Tim... What I think is the reason why Richard didn't mention *Because We Are In Love (The Wedding song)* as also the song that has the lowest *Karen note* is because he didn't really play that song very much..., he never really noticed or he doesn't remember. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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