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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 6, 2005 20:48:38 GMT -5
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Post by enigma on Jun 7, 2005 5:57:34 GMT -5
Interesting posts here I will adress some points here you know me its what I do. Rick I like your idea of not repeating rumors everything I share regarding Karen and the Carpenters is substantiated by interviews with those in the Caprenters Camp usually Richard and Karen themselves or producers like Phil Ramone etc. I feel these are the most credible sources. Rumours or BS that are out there really have no place on forums if you can't prove or Back up your statements with credible sources don't bother making them unless they are your opinions which should be specified thats just how I feel about sharing info. Rick also being protective of Karen is alright I am big on giving a voice to those who do not have a voice and Karen is dead so she cannot defend herself so if you or others were not protecting Karen I would be. As far as your statement regarding Agnes maybe later on Agnes may have been compensating for Richard being eclipsed by Karen but this favoratism was present throughout Karens life even before she became famous remember The Carpenter family moved to Downey to further Richards Career Karen had not discovered her voice was not drumming and was not interested in music at that time as she would say many time "I (Karen) could not do anything at that time". I will say that Karen becoming the true star of the show must have been a surprise to Agnes and Richard and there had to be some resentment that it was not Richard the star instead though I do not think Agnes' treatment of Karen was due to that resentment. Dave You are too funny man. No I am not Fox Mulder I do not have a picture of Karen behind my desk with a banner "the truth is out there" across it. I am not obsessed with finding answers I just like to be informed. I think you and I would get along Dave your science fiction references are right down my alley I am a big time sci fi fan I have seen all the Bablon 5's as well as Star Trek's and almost any other sci fi I can get my hands on. "I really enjoy all the TV specials and guest appearances. Karen always manages to bring a smile to me. She had such an adorable personality. Just love that girl..." Absolutely Rick I could not have said it better. Karen was funny and very carismatic I also just love and adore this gifted woman.
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 7, 2005 21:13:38 GMT -5
Dave I'll add the Carpenters' own "This Masquerade" to the list. As far as your statement regarding Agnes maybe later on Agnes may have been compensating for Richard being eclipsed by Karen but this favoratism was present throughout Karens life even before she became famous remember The Carpenter family moved to Downey to further Richards Career Karen had not discovered her voice was not drumming and was not interested in music at that time as she would say many time "I (Karen) could not do anything at that time". I will say that Karen becoming the true star of the show must have been a surprise to Agnes and Richard and there had to be some resentment that it was not Richard the star instead though I do not think Agnes' treatment of Karen was due to that resentment. Karen definitely did not deserve the treatment she received from Agnes. Though, as we recall Karen was pretty tough on Richard. she'd interfere with any possible relationship Richard would get into. Look at what happened with Randy Bash and Sandy (Karen's hairdresser - for the life of me I can't think of her last name). That entire family went back and forth at each other. But you speak to any of their friends they all agree they were good people. Especially Karen.
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Post by enigma on Jun 8, 2005 7:48:00 GMT -5
Dave I'll add the Carpenters' own "This Masquerade" to the list. As far as your statement regarding Agnes maybe later on Agnes may have been compensating for Richard being eclipsed by Karen but this favoratism was present throughout Karens life even before she became famous remember The Carpenter family moved to Downey to further Richards Career Karen had not discovered her voice was not drumming and was not interested in music at that time as she would say many time "I (Karen) could not do anything at that time". I will say that Karen becoming the true star of the show must have been a surprise to Agnes and Richard and there had to be some resentment that it was not Richard the star instead though I do not think Agnes' treatment of Karen was due to that resentment. Karen definitely did not deserve the treatment she received from Agnes. Though, as we recall Karen was pretty tough on Richard. she'd interfere with any possible relationship Richard would get into. Look at what happened with Randy Bash and Sandy (Karen's hairdresser - for the life of me I can't think of her last name). That entire family went back and forth at each other. But you speak to any of their friends they all agree they were good people. Especially Karen. I tend to get the feeling that Karen only interfered and resented Richards girlfriends to get much desired approval from Agnes. I feel that because Agnes resented Richards girlfriends Karen sided with Agnes and in turn would resent his girlfriends in hopes of getting the love and approval from Agnes she was missing. Rick I also get the feeling the Carpenter family were down to earth good folks and yes especially in Karens case. Karens treatment though not fair, is fairly normal in alot of households parents will not always treat all their children absolutely equally one will seem to be favored especially if they demonstrate a gift a a young age as Richard did. Unfortuneately Karens gifts developed later and a pattern had already been established that was difficult to break and in this case only started to break when Karen went to new York for treatment and Karen and Agnes finally got their issues out in the open. It seeems as much as everyone loved Karen the one person she wanted to show she loved Karen did not convey that message to Karen herself and that was of course her own mother Agnes. I have little doubt Agnes loved Karen she just had difficulty showing it and this had tragic consequences as we all know.
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Post by enigma on Jun 8, 2005 7:54:35 GMT -5
You don't have a picture of the "lost" album cover, Enigma?!! I'll bet Roland does... The Carpenters' "The Truth Is Out There", an album inspired by the duo's appearance on the "X-Files" (Karen and Richard played entertainers whose bodies were inhabited by alien lifeforms!) featured an album cover showing Karen, dressed like Sam Spade, attempting to open a safe door on the front, and on the rear cover we see Richard inside the safe, smiling and holding his index finger to his lips! The album has 12 songs, and I'm counting on you guys (and gals) to help my lost memory. The first song was a cover of Billy Joel's "The Stranger". The second, Bruce Springsteen's "Brilliant Disguise". Now it's your turn to fill in the blanks, and maybe describe the album jacket! Three songs that come to mind are: Don't Talk To Strangers Strangers In The Night Eyes Of A Stranger Can you guess the theme?
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 8, 2005 10:30:52 GMT -5
Man, what a thread. Whew! Took me about 45 minutes to read through it. Very good discussion going on here. I'm torn right down the middle. I agree with you Rick in that what I like to remember about Karen is how beautiful she was, and what a tremendous talent she had, and shared with us all. At the same time, I have to agree with Enigma/Dave/Cam in that Karen had been treated horribly by Agnes for a long time, and that I feel, after all the reading I've done, etc., came from the fact that she THOUGHT she had a rising star in Richard. And, of course, we all know that she did. What she didn't count on was the fact that commercially, Karen was the immediate success story. Her voice is what Joe Osborn first heard that made him want to sign a contract - with HER, not Richard. Now truthfully, what kind of a slap in the face would that be, sibling or not, if mom thought it was YOU who had the talent, but your SISTER got the recording contract. I'm just thinking that there had to be some disgruntled people in that house at that time. Then, of course, look at the whole idea of Carpenters. OF COURSE, at least in the beginning, Rich was the brains of the operation. And my gosh, at his age, his arrangements were incredible - they are still incredible, but at the age when he started putting all of those vocal harmonies together, and all the ideas he had for songs, and how they would sound, etc. Richard is chocked-full of natural talent, there is no question about that. ( I think even we, Carpenters fans, often overlook Richard). It was seen at a very early age, and it was nurtured. Karen, on the other hand, and speaking of "natural" talent - she absolutely came out of left field with this tremendous voice, and the ability to grasp playing a full trap set so quickly - well, it's plain to see that she, too, had an incredible gift; but this hadn't been seen until much later. All the focus had been on Richard, Richard, Richard. As Enigma said, down to the fact that the family moved to Downey CA due, in part, to moving Richard's career along. There was no thought of Karen or a career path for her at that time. I think all too often Richard is way overlooked for his part in the success of Carpenters. Of course, we love listening to Karen - of course, it's that voice, and that lovely face that we immediately recognize. But, the talent that Richard has is indescribable. He's a genius. And, the poor guy, just didn't have the charisma that Karen had. I mean - he was all business - Karen was mostly business, but partly fun, too. That smile. That warmth. Richard didn't have THAT gift. He knew what he wanted musically, and expected it from every single person who worked with him, from Karen on down. But he didn't have the personality of an entertainer. Karen developed that personality - which is why it was essential for her to get away from the drums and front the band. I know from experience it's difficult to grab your audience when you're 'stuck' behind an instrument. When I began standing up to play, for example, rather than having to sit behind a keyboard, there was a better connection I had to the people who were listening/dancing, etc. But, being restricted behind an instrument - especially a full trap set with cymbals, etc., where one could barely be seen, was no way to "front" the group. There was no one communicating with the audience in a meaningful way, until Karen started getting out from behind her drums. So, who was going to do that, - front the band - Richard? No way. He didn't have the persona for it. He was dry - he was rigid - he was intense. And even for the 70's, no one made Richard really look good as he sang/played. He was just "there." That's unfortunate, but, it's true. These attributes does not an entertainer make. I'm getting way off base here in a way, but not so, really. Agnes Carpenter placed her bet on her son to be a star. And, it was Karen who shined brighter. Ouch! It certainly wasn't because Richard didn't shine - he was the backbone of the operation, after all. It was his knowledge that led Karen down the path she took - she adored him, and respected him musically. She knew that RC knew what he was doing, and that by listening to him she couldn't go wrong. Established fact. But Agnes didn't like the fact that her baby boy was seen as the "other" Carpenter - the "Piano Player." And, I think Agnes pure and simple resented Karen for that. True, this went back a lot longer than just when the group began, these feelings that Richard was the special one. But, this, I feel, just aggravated the situation that had already begun. Cam, I totally agree with you that Agnes loved Karen. I am sure that she loved her. But, I don't suppose I will ever understand why it was so terribly difficult for her to show Karen that she loved her. Did Agnes distance herself THAT much from Karen because she became the focal point of the Carpenters? Was it THAT important to Agnes that Richard be the "best" of the two - in the eyes of everyone, not just her and perhaps Harold? Or..was there much, much more there that we just don't know about and never will. Sometimes mothers think their daughters are just replicas of themselves, and whatever "mistakes" the mom made the daughter will inevitably make, and so the theory, "why bother" comes in to play. (I'm thinking now of Meggie Cleary in the story of the Thorn Birds). But the same might be true of Agnes/Karen. We will never know. One final thought, Enigma - I tend to agree with you on this issue too - that perhaps Karen did side with Agnes on the Richard girlfriend issue (no one will ever be good enough for him) because it's the one area where they both saw eye-to-eye - or at least they could see eye-to-eye on it, if Karen supported Agnes' feelings about it. This, of course, is only my opinion. But, it does sort of make sense that perhaps because there WAS an area where the two of them could agree, why not make the most of it and gain a bit of mom's approval? I just don't know. At the end of the day, Rick - it is about the music, I fully agree. Karen Carpenter had one of the most beautiful, full, rich, lovely, exciting, pleading, longing, blissful, just knock-your-socks-off voices of our lifetime. However, she was but half of a duo, and the sound - the Carpenters "sound" came from Richard. All too often Richard tends to get overlooked in the scheme of things. But it was his genius that put the sound together and gave Karen the vehicle she needed at least in the beginning, to be heard all over the world, and appreciated all over the world. It was Richard who initially brought Carpenters to the forefront, and blazed the path, if you will, to the success they enjoyed. Sorry to have gotten so worked-up! I get so passionate about this subject, as you can see. But, this is important stuff to me. "..what lies in the future is a mystery to us all - no one can predict the wheel of fortune as it falls - there may come a time when I will see that I've been wrong, but for now, this is my song.." Tim
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 8, 2005 13:45:04 GMT -5
;D Yes, this thread has turned into an unexpectedly interesting discussion of the Carpenters family. Another interesting fact of the DVD is that Karen and Richard's cousin Joan was in the audience. Joan ended up marrying one of K&R instructors (I'll have to watch the DVD again to get the name and correct information). Anyway at this point in time Joan had short dark hair. she smiled as the camera flashed to her and she sure looked a whole lot like Karen.
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Post by karen69roland on Jun 8, 2005 22:17:34 GMT -5
His voice is simply not commercial enough, although in my opinion it's not much different than Barry Manilow's. This is what I call a very nice compliment.
Richard is a very nice and *flush* singer, but, I don't think he has that special sparkle to make people cry in his voice..., Barry does.
..., and Karen is the Queen at that. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 9, 2005 2:25:25 GMT -5
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Post by karen69roland on Jun 9, 2005 3:38:30 GMT -5
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Post by enigma on Jun 9, 2005 7:14:12 GMT -5
Tim You make some good points Yes Richard is seemingly overlooked but those in the industry and those who know music recognise the importance of Richards behind the scenes he is somewhat of an unsung hero but I don't agree that he was a genous he was musically gifted but he was no genius. What must be realised is that what happened in the Carpenters happens all the time. Karen was the lead singer it is very unusual and rare for anyone in a band to get more attention than the lead singer he/she does most of the singing so of course the majority of people will identify with the lead singer. Richard knew Karen had a great voice and it would be better if she took over the majority of the lead. He also had to have known Karen would get more of the attention when she sang so many leads lead singers get the most attention simple as that. Look at a few examples here one is ABBA the girls of that group got most of the attention dispite the fact the guys in the group were responsible for the songs that came out and doing the magic behind the scenes other examples that come to mind are the Eurithmics, Roxette, Ace of Base and No Doubt as well as countless others in all those cases lead singers got all the attention while their partners were responsible for the music being produced. In all cases there is resentment because of it and Richard resented it too. In the case of the Carpenters it must have been hard to know you picked the songs, produced and arranged them and your sister comes in lays down her leads yet you are known as a piano player in your sisters band dispite the fact it is a duo called the Carpenters not Karen Carpenter solo. Richard seemed to accept this role with alot more dignity than others did I never heard him utter a word of jealousy regarding Karen eclipsing him. I recognise Richards contibutions to the Carpenters but I must say I would not have bought one single Carpenter record without Karen she is the chief reason by far that I am a Carpenters fan.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 9, 2005 8:46:48 GMT -5
Dave you totally floor me. I hope the muu muu was dry when you got to it. You make some great points, and I gotta believe, like you, that Karen's life would have been much different had she gone away to college somewhere - but we'd have never known, now, would we? And I would have to add Nancy Wilson and Sarah Vaughan to your list of all time great singers, Rick. Enigma, I do agree with you, about all that you mentioned - I mean - you got my point in that many times it's the "worker bee" who does not get the glory - of course, it's the lead singer. That's the first person seen, heard, and..remembered. But I disagree in regard to Richard. In my opinion, he IS a genius. Absolutely creative, musically gifted, and able to put it all together enough to not only play, but sing, and arrange, and orchestrate, and accompany, and write, etc. Yeah, I think he is..
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 9, 2005 9:41:52 GMT -5
Roland and Tim you're both right Ann Wilson, Sarah Vaughn and Nancy Wilson certainly belong in that list of the finest of the finest vocalists. I also want to add my second favorite of all-time Donna Summer. Tim I have to agree with you on Richard being a musical genius. Myself having a musical background I know how much goes into just one aspect of producing music. But Richard did much more than just one part. He played keyboards to perfection. H co-wrote most of the early songs - He wrote the music itself - which in my mind is much more work than writing lyrics. Though writing lyrics is a gift in itself. He also sang (not the best singer ever) but Richard did sing in perfect pitch and tone. It's that lisp which ruined his voice. But Richard's finest gift was his gift to arrange and orchestrate. He did both the musical and vocal arrangements. In case some of you don't know what arranging entails here's a brief run down. The person who does the musical arrangement charts out exactly when and where each musician will play and how they play. Even how loud or soft they play there instrument. For the vocal arrangement it the same process Richard would chart when and where Karen (and himself) would sing. How long she would hold the notes. How loud or soft she sings certain parts. He would even chart out when she would take a breath to ensure she could sing the entire phrase and remain steady in voice. there's more to it than I've described here. But nonetheless arranging is a very detailed process. Richard was a master at arranging. You guys may not agree with this next comment but I feel a great amount of why Karen was such an excellent vocalist had to do with Richard. Yes she was born with a natural gift. But Richard taught her how to use it properly. Note on Karen's voice. Rod Temperton I feel did just as well with Karen's voice on her solo album. He really brought out other sides of her voice we never knew existed. Temperton himself is a master at arranging music and vocals. But by the time Karen did her solo album she had already mastered her vocal techniques and didn't need as much guidance.
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Post by BethMosior on Jun 9, 2005 13:17:31 GMT -5
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 9, 2005 13:56:52 GMT -5
Roland and Tim you're both right Ann Wilson, Sarah Vaughn and Nancy Wilson certainly belong in that list of the finest of the finest vocalists. I also want to add my second favorite of all-time Donna Summer. Tim I have to agree with you on Richard being a musical genius. Myself having a musical background I know how much goes into just one aspect of producing music. But Richard did much more than just one part. He played keyboards to perfection. H co-wrote most of the early songs - He wrote the music itself - which in my mind is much more work than writing lyrics. Though writing lyrics is a gift in itself. He also sang (not the best singer ever) but Richard did sing in perfect pitch and tone. It's that lisp which ruined his voice. But Richard's finest gift was his gift to arrange and orchestrate. He did both the musical and vocal arrangements. In case some of you don't know what arranging entails here's a brief run down. The person who does the musical arrangement charts out exactly when and where each musician will play and how they play. Even how loud or soft they play there instrument. For the vocal arrangement it the same process Richard would chart when and where Karen (and himself) would sing. How long she would hold the notes. How loud or soft she sings certain parts. He would even chart out when she would take a breath to ensure she could sing the entire phrase and remain steady in voice. there's more to it than I've described here. But nonetheless arranging is a very detailed process. Richard was a master at arranging. You guys may not agree with this next comment but I feel a great amount of why Karen was such an excellent vocalist had to do with Richard. Yes she was born with a natural gift. But Richard taught her how to use it properly. Note on Karen's voice. Rod Temperton I feel did just as well with Karen's voice on her solo album. He really brought out other sides of her voice we never knew existed. Temperton himself is a master at arranging music and vocals. But by the time Karen did her solo album she had already mastered her vocal techniques and didn't need as much guidance. Rick, Bravo! Nice explaination of just some of the steps Richard had to go through during the arrangement of a song. I hadn't thought to detail it, but you're so right on - and those steps are repeated endlessly until all of the pieces are put together - all of the instruments, add the voices, stack them, blend them, fine-tune the volumes on the instruments, then the vocals, so that the harmony parts blend volume-wise, and so on and so on. It's just amazing - and Richard could hear all of this from the start - so he knew what he wanted. That's what I meant by genius. And I do agree 100% that Richard "taught" Karen how to get the most out of her voice - it was a natural, beautiful voice, but Richard knew what keys would work, what ranges were best, and right down to the syllables which sounds were best suited to Karen. (See Fans Ask, Richard Carpenter Website). Solitaire was one such song that had the right "sounds" in it for Karen's voice, according to Richard, and one reason it came out so well when recorded by her. There's just a lot to the whole process. I have to also agree with you about Rod Temperton. His touch with Karen during her solo sessions brought out many different colors/facets of her vocal abilities. So many things to consider.. Tim
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Post by karen69roland on Jun 9, 2005 15:51:21 GMT -5
I've said this a couple of times in the past myself, so, now that the subject in on, I'll say it again..., Richard Carpenter is a musical genius. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 9, 2005 16:49:54 GMT -5
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Post by BethMosior on Jun 9, 2005 17:17:09 GMT -5
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