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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 9, 2005 22:24:18 GMT -5
Roland and Tim you're both right Ann Wilson, Sarah Vaughn and Nancy Wilson certainly belong in that list of the finest of the finest vocalists. I also want to add my second favorite of all-time Donna Summer. Tim I have to agree with you on Richard being a musical genius. Myself having a musical background I know how much goes into just one aspect of producing music. But Richard did much more than just one part. He played keyboards to perfection. H co-wrote most of the early songs - He wrote the music itself - which in my mind is much more work than writing lyrics. Though writing lyrics is a gift in itself. He also sang (not the best singer ever) but Richard did sing in perfect pitch and tone. It's that lisp which ruined his voice. But Richard's finest gift was his gift to arrange and orchestrate. He did both the musical and vocal arrangements. In case some of you don't know what arranging entails here's a brief run down. The person who does the musical arrangement charts out exactly when and where each musician will play and how they play. Even how loud or soft they play there instrument. For the vocal arrangement it the same process Richard would chart when and where Karen (and himself) would sing. How long she would hold the notes. How loud or soft she sings certain parts. He would even chart out when she would take a breath to ensure she could sing the entire phrase and remain steady in voice. there's more to it than I've described here. But nonetheless arranging is a very detailed process. Richard was a master at arranging. You guys may not agree with this next comment but I feel a great amount of why Karen was such an excellent vocalist had to do with Richard. Yes she was born with a natural gift. But Richard taught her how to use it properly. Note on Karen's voice. Rod Temperton I feel did just as well with Karen's voice on her solo album. He really brought out other sides of her voice we never knew existed. Temperton himself is a master at arranging music and vocals. But by the time Karen did her solo album she had already mastered her vocal techniques and didn't need as much guidance. Rick, Bravo! Nice explaination of just some of the steps Richard had to go through during the arrangement of a song. I hadn't thought to detail it, but you're so right on - and those steps are repeated endlessly until all of the pieces are put together - all of the instruments, add the voices, stack them, blend them, fine-tune the volumes on the instruments, then the vocals, so that the harmony parts blend volume-wise, and so on and so on. It's just amazing - and Richard could hear all of this from the start - so he knew what he wanted. That's what I meant by genius. And I do agree 100% that Richard "taught" Karen how to get the most out of her voice - it was a natural, beautiful voice, but Richard knew what keys would work, what ranges were best, and right down to the syllables which sounds were best suited to Karen. (See Fans Ask, Richard Carpenter Website). Solitaire was one such song that had the right "sounds" in it for Karen's voice, according to Richard, and one reason it came out so well when recorded by her. There's just a lot to the whole process. I have to also agree with you about Rod Temperton. His touch with Karen during her solo sessions brought out many different colors/facets of her vocal abilities. So many things to consider.. Tim Another claim to Richard's legacy is the fact that he received five Grammy Award nominations for his musical arrangements. Although he never won one just that fact alone is quite an achievement and a statement to his ear for detail in his arrangements. Funny though as much as I know that Richard was an outstanding musician, arranger, songwriter, etc it's still Karen that makes me love Carpenters. Karen just simple had (has) that one of a kind voice.
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Post by enigma on Jun 10, 2005 7:24:35 GMT -5
: You guys can wite Richard is a genius all you want you can write it in big letters but you will not convince me that Richard is a genius I do not think he is no sir! Yes I know he arranges produces and picks the songs for the Carpenters record I know his contributions but my definition of a genius and yours are obviously worlds apart because by your definition eveyone who makes records produces records and arranges records is a genius alot of people who make records wear all these hats and do the jobs well and most producers and arrangers see the finished version of their song before it is recorded it does not make them geniuses to me. Now the voice thing I partially agree on yes Richard did guide Karen when she sang he did pick songs tayler made for Karen. He was her brother and hence knew Karen well so he could hear a song and automatically envision Karen singng it. But we must be fair and give Karen some credit she knew her own voice and what she was capapble of so she could also guide herself when singing and interpreting songs, Also when Richard says I did not like thias song or think this song was a hit until I (Richard) heard Karen sing it tells me that he did not guide her in these cases it was Karens own interpretaion of the song that made the vocal great not Richards coaching also in a case like Superstar where it was done in one take there could not have been any coaching. In all the mentioned cases it was Karens interpretaion of the song not Richard telling her how to sing the song.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 10, 2005 8:45:17 GMT -5
: You guys can wite Richard is a genius all you want you can write it in big letters but you will not convince me that Richard is a genius I do not think he is no sir! Yes I know he arranges produces and picks the songs for the Carpenters record I know his contributions but my definition of a genius and yours are obviously worlds apart because by your definition eveyone who makes records produces records and arranges records is a genius alot of people who make records wear all these hats and do the jobs well and most producers and arrangers see the finished version of their song before it is recorded it does not make them geniuses to me. Now the voice thing I partially agree on yes Richard did guide Karen when she sang he did pick songs tayler made for Karen. He was her brother and hence knew Karen well so he could hear a song and automatically envision Karen singng it. But we must be fair and give Karen some credit she knew her own voice and what she was capapble of so she could also guide herself when singing and interpreting songs, Also when Richard says I did not like thias song or think this song was a hit until I (Richard) heard Karen sing it tells me that he did not guide her in these cases it was Karens own interpretaion of the song that made the vocal great not Richards coaching also in a case like Superstar where it was done in one take there could not have been any coaching. In all the mentioned cases it was Karens interpretaion of the song not Richard telling her how to sing the song. Ah yes, but Enigma you missed my point on Solitaire. Remember, Karen was against recording it. It came out great, and it's because she sang it great, no question about that at all..but I believe she only recorded it at Richard's urging..and why was that? I believe it was because he thought it would be a dynamite song for her to sing, and that it would work great with her voice. I do agree with you he undoubtedly didn't have any opportunity to "coach" her - I think she sang these lyrics off a napkin if I remember the stories correctly - so the "interpretation" was all Karen - granted. And a wonderful interpretation and reading of this beautiful song it was. But, who prompted her to record it in the first place?
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 10, 2005 11:22:07 GMT -5
Enigma in all honesty - yes the songs Karen sang were Karen's interpretations - but it was Richard who told her when to sing at certain parts. How long to hold her notes. When to take a breath for better control of the song. When to sing the high notes and when to sing low notes. Karen's vocals were carefully guided by Richard. They did not go into the studio with Richard saying to Karen okay go ahead and sing. He instructed her how to sing each song every step of the way. Richard put an enormous amount of thought and detail into Karen's vocals alone. Then you add all the multi layered vocals and background vocals. I mean this stuff just did not happen by itself. As for Karen reading the lyrics of "Superstar" from a napkin - that's just one song. I'm certain before they even recorded the vocal Richard most likely went over the vocal arrangement with Karen on how to properly sing the song. Karen being the quick study she was got it on the first try. Karen simply did not walk into the studio with Richard handing her the lyrics on a napkin and say to her okay sing it. No way it just doesn't happen that way. He most likely sang the song for her first. And maybe even sang a part or two with her and then the tape went rolling and with napkin in hand they recorded the vocal. As for being a musical genius - yes - Richard is a musical genius. Many musicians consider Richard to be one of the very best of all-time. The songs he chose were not always taylor-made for Karen's voice. But more so Richard turned these songs into songs which would fit Karen's voice. Who would have thought "Ticket To Ride" would be a perfect fit for Karen. Not me. But Richard had a vision and he acted on it. He changed the pace of the song, tweaked the pitch. Came up with a new vocal range. He constructed an entirely new song yet left it close enough to recognize that it is the same classic tune the Beatles wrote and recorded. Yes, many people wear the many hats in music - and I would have to say most of those people are geniuses. To even just be a gifted songwriter and write catchy tunes in my mind is genius. I have a friend who has a local band. He's been doing it for 20 plus years. He's never made it big. But to watch him write his songs and then piece together the musical arrangements with the musicians and also he sings the songs (usually back up vocals). It's amazing. I consider him to be a genius. And my friend's music is not even close to what Richard did. Richard's arrangements - both the musical and vocal arrangements are outstanding. His arrangements are crisp, clean and clear. The Carpenters did not go into the studio and by some stroke of luck they just started playing their instruments and it all came out beautifully. No way. They each received charts from Richard with music notes on them dictating exactly when to play their instruments, how long to hold each note, how loud to play, when to add vibrato, etc. And Richard would be there as the rehearsal was happening changing things as he heard it. The music did not just happen. Just like Karen's vocals the music was carefully planned and constructed by Richard. He put a whole lot of thought and detail into what he did. I mean listen to any given Carpenters song and each instrument is clear and easily identifiable. the instruments are not cluttered together - they are each defined beautifully - that is Richard's work. Myself I say unless you've done it yourself - you just don't know what goes into it. As far as I'm concerned anybody who can wear all those different hats and do a decent job with it is a genius. and Richard wore all those hats and he did more than just a decent job with it - he did an outstanding job. To say Richard is not a genius is obviously wrong. I'm willing to put money on it - that most musicians (who know Carpenters music) would say that Richard Carpenter's work was genius. Herb Alpert, Burt Bacharach, John Bettis are a few who have stated that Richard was the best of the best at what he did. Enigma you can't tell me that you think the music and the vocals in songs like "Close To You", "Road Ode", "This Masquerade", and "Only Yesterday" are anything less than outstanding. Here's a few quotes form the Coleman book. "Herb was vindicated. And for all that he adored Karen's voice, he believed, then as now, that Richard was "was the absolute key to the Carpenters' success". (page 95) Richard's "dedication, concern, direction and ability" were visually apparent as he led his band through "a fine blend of instrumental and vocal arrangements and harmonies." Richard was, wrote Thomas, "serious, often to the point of stage-personality restriction, but understandably so. The result is perfection." (page 122) And then there was Richard's youth. "Come on, he was just a kid running a multimillion-dollar-a-year organization and within the rubric of that having to be a creative genius, too. (page 216) I could add more - but I feel this is sufficient. Enigma. I say give it a try. Try and do what Richard did. As well as he did it and then tell me he's not a genius. I'm not intending on being rude to you. But I truly feel you're way off base instating that Richard is not a musical genius. Maybe that's you're own personal opinion. but in the sense of facts and musical ability (not opinions) Richard is a true musical maestro. If he weren't he would not have had (and still has) the admiration of many heavy-weights in the music industry. And one more comment. By saying all this I am not taking one thing away from karen. She was one of the world's most gifted singers. she could take a vocal arrangement and learn it instantaneously. Most singers have to practice an arrangement for days even weeks before singing it properly. Yes, Richard directed the notes which karen sang and he wrote the vocal arrangements - but the one thing he could not direct was the soul and feeling karen put into each song - that was 100% Karen.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 10, 2005 12:10:45 GMT -5
Rick, I agree 100% - and especially with the part where you say .." Yes, Richard directed the notes which karen sang and he wrote the vocal arrangements - but the one thing he could not direct was the soul and feeling karen put into each song - that was 100% Karen."Well stated.
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Post by karen69roland on Jun 10, 2005 16:24:27 GMT -5
How long to hold her notes. When to take a breath for better control of the song. Maybe it was the case when Karen was a beginner, but, not in the '70s.
Those are elementary technics and Karen Carpenter was a natural, well, she was not only a natural, she was the best in the world.
Can someone imagine Richard telling this to Karen from 1973 to the day she died? It's just not logical.
I mean..., look/listen at her sing live..., there's no Richard telling her to do those elementary technics at her side.
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Personally, I'm not trying to convince anyone that Richard was a MUSICAL genius, he just is. Combining the QUALITY of his playing, composing and arranging makes him one. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow] (Edit = Typo) Roland
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 10, 2005 18:47:40 GMT -5
MY BAD The napkin reading came from Superstar. Sorry - but it doesn't change my point. Just wanted you all to know that though I have lost parts of my mind, it isn't all gone, yet. (knew you'd love to know that Dave). ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 10, 2005 19:11:54 GMT -5
Roland, not meaning to disagree, but yes, I do think Richard went over this stuff with Karen when it was he who did the arrangements of the songs - Karen also did arranging as time went on, so she, too, would do this same thing. I think what Rick meant, (though I'm not speaking for him), and certainly I meant is that Richard knew the inflections that would work best, and when he wanted notes cut off so that not only in the back ups, but in the solo parts as well, everyone cut off together, etc., at the same time. That sort of thing. I don't think either of us was trying to say Richard told Karen how to sing each song note for note - of course not - he did direct the way his arrangements went, though, and when I did that - I told my vocalists how I wanted things (i.e., volume dynamics, how to sing an "o" at the end of a word - that sort of thing). My attempt at an explanation that I hope makes a bit more sense. Tim
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 10, 2005 19:22:34 GMT -5
One final thing from me: Went to www.dictionary.com - here is the definition of genius - gen·ius ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jnys) n. pl. gen·ius·es Extraordinary intellectual and creative power. A person of extraordinary intellect and talent: “One is not born a genius, one becomes a genius” (Simone de Beauvoir). A person who has an exceptionally high intelligence quotient, typically above 140. A strong natural talent, aptitude, or inclination: has a genius for choosing the right words. One who has such a talent or inclination: a genius at diplomacy. The prevailing spirit or distinctive character, as of a place, a person, or an era: the genius of Elizabethan England. pl. ge·ni·i (jn-) Roman Mythology. A tutelary deity or guardian spirit of a person or place. A person who has great influence over another. Okay, enough said. Tim
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 10, 2005 20:02:48 GMT -5
You are right Tim. Richard did sculpt how Karen was to sing each song - almost note for note. There's a reason why the songs are so very well done. It's because every little bit of music and vocals were carefully thought out. Yes, I think in 1973 and even in 1981 Richard was at the helm of how Karen and when Karen would sing these songs. Even with her solo album Phil Ramone worked with Karen on her pronunciation of certain word most prominently the word "love". I remember reading how Richard was very precise about his arrangements down to the last detail including when Karen would take her breaths between verses to keep steady control of her vocal. This was in the recording for the song "Goodbye To Love". Yes, Karen was a natural. She has a beautiful voice. But even the very best singers need direction if they are going to produce the perfect pop record. It all has to match together - the vocals the music, the overall feel. It just doesn't happen without detailed direction. It's like a performer in an orchestra. You have the conductor who dictates when sections of musicians play, when soloist preform. And even before the orchestra has their performance they are working with the conductor for several weeks/months. The conductor instructs each musician in their parts. Same with a choir. Each voice in a choir is rehearsed for several weeks with the choir director. I was in a choir for several years. the director taught me my parts along with the parts of every other singer. she told us when to sing. which parts to sing high, when to sing low. How long to hold a note. when to sing loud, when to sing soft. How to pronounce certain vowels in certain places. whenever there is a team effort such as a choir, orchestra, pop band someone has to diced the team and make sure the team is working in synchronization. Richard and Karen were both perfectionists. Too much was riding on the production of each album and each song to leave it all up to chance. Karen didn't just go into the studio and sing. She learned her parts. How do you think they were able to reproduce their sound perfectly live in concert. it didn't happen by a stroke of luck. No way. Every single note played and sung was well rehearsed. And all this was directed by the team captain - who was Richard.
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Post by karen69roland on Jun 10, 2005 20:15:04 GMT -5
Okay, first of all, I know what arranging is(I do this everyday) and I know what singing is and no one will make me buy that Karen didn't know where to take breath between notes..., she was the best at her art, that's it.
Second, I never said that Richard was a genius in an overall human being matter..., I said that he was a MUSICAL genius. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 10, 2005 20:33:12 GMT -5
Okay, first of all, I know what arranging is(I do this everyday) and I know what singing is and no one will make me buy that Karen didn't know where to take breath between notes..., she was the best at her art, that's it.
Second, I never said that Richard was a genius in an overall human being matter..., I said that he was a MUSICAL genius. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow] No doubt that Karen knew when to take a breath. I am only going by what I've read in interviews and Richard has stated in several interviews that often times he would write where Karen should take a breath in each song. He commented that he was into every aspect and detail of each song right down to when Karen should take a breath. I will do a search and find the interviews or documents where Richard makes this comment. I do agree with you Roland in that maybe as an overall genius as a person Richard is not. but as far as musical ability Richard is certainly a genius.
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Post by karen69roland on Jun 10, 2005 20:50:58 GMT -5
My last post was a reply to Tim's post.
Now, *Goodbye To Love * comes in the picture... Here's an example of what I'm saying... On the studio recording, which Richard had total control over the final mix, Karen seems to be on the edge of loosing breath on the word *friend* in -*..., loneliness and empty days will be my only *friend...*-. To MY ear, there's a lack of power in there compare to the next overdub that comes in(-*..., from this day love is forgotten...*-)..., and, personally, I would have redo that part.
Now, notice what Karen does LIVE(where SHE had total control) on the part -*..., time and time again the chance for love has past me by...*- she takes a pause..., and continue with -*..., and all I know of love is how to live without it...*-. Well, she did that on many songs live 'cause she KNEW what to do to be comfortable with her singing. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow] (Edit = Typo) RC
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 10, 2005 21:08:09 GMT -5
Who would have thought this topic about the "This Is Your Life" DVD would veer off onto Richard being a musical genius and his techniques at arranging the music and vocals. Well it sure does make interesting reading.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 10, 2005 21:15:36 GMT -5
My last post was a reply to Tim's post.
Now, *Goodbye To Love * comes in the picture... Here's an example of what I'm saying... On the studio recording, which Richard had total control over the final mix, Karen seems to be on the edge of loosing breath on the word *friend* in -*..., loneliness and empty days will be my only *friend...*-. To MY ear, there's a lack of power in there compare to the next overdub that comes in(-*..., from this day love is forgotten...*-)..., and, personally, I would have redone that part.
Now, notice what Karen does LIVE(where SHE had total control) on the part -*..., time and time again the chance for love has past me by...*- she takes a pause..., and continue with -*..., and all I know of love is how to live without it...*-. Well, she does that on many songs live 'cause she KNEW what to do to be confortable with her singing. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow] (Edit = Typo) RC Roland, agreed - MUSICAL genius. That's what I meant, too. Tim
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Post by karen69roland on Jun 10, 2005 21:42:13 GMT -5
Who would have thought this topic about the "This Is Your Life" DVD would veer off onto Richard being a musical genius and his techniques at arranging the music and vocals. Well it sure does make interesting reading. Edit = Boy, I made like 7-8 typos on that post that Tim quoted me..., and I can't edit them..., I'm ashamed.
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Post by enigma on Jun 11, 2005 7:13:42 GMT -5
I am not going to go into the musical genius thing again its a complete waste of typing as neither side will convince the other as Dave said and I said for that matter its a mater of definition here. For my Part nuff said I think the lines of respect are being challenged if not crossed on this so before it goes too far I will just say were will agree to disagree on the topic of Richards so called musical genius. Roland Talk about unlikely allies I agree totally with what you say if I am reading your posts correctly. Richard did coach Karen especially in the beginning but Karen was gifted in knowing how to sing the songs Richard picked for her she often surpassed his expectations and surprised him. That fact tells me that in order to be surprised Richard could not have wrote and dictated note for note what was to be sung certainly not in all cases. Rick of course Karen rehearsed and Richard fine tuned her vocals nobody just goes into a studio and sings there is structure and Richard provided that framework or structure but Karen perfected what Richard charted for her and I will bet that alot of the songs did not turn out exactly as Richard charted them on a vocal level. To say that Karen was some puppet with a great voice that Richard dictated note for note, breath for breath, pause for pause to does not make sense to me Karen did contribute more than a clone of Richards arrangements. I also feel that as time went by Karen needed less and less coaching and knew exactly what Richard was looking for in the vocal performance. We must also remember that Karen being a drummer would have knowledge of timing and know when to do what was required when she laid down her vocals. Hope this makes sense. BTW Roland if I missed your point(s) I apologise
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 11, 2005 9:38:02 GMT -5
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