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Post by wisejester7 on Sept 8, 2006 8:02:55 GMT -5
I have a few burning Carpenters questions on my mind and I haven't been able to find the answers. I'm sure I'm not the only one with questions.
I'll start with this...Why did Kenny Rogers not take Karen on when she auditioned for his group? Was it her age or something else?
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 8, 2006 10:13:52 GMT -5
I have a few burning Carpenters questions on my mind and I haven't been able to find the answers. I'm sure I'm not the only one with questions. I'll start with this...Why did Kenny Rogers not take Karen on when she auditioned for his group? Was it her age or something else? I have a feeling it had to do with vocal style. Possibly Kenny was looking for someone with more grit in their voice.
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Post by BethMosior on Sept 9, 2006 17:24:55 GMT -5
At 1st I thought Kenny Rogers was crazy for turning her away but I think you are right Rick and I can't remember where I read it, my mind is not all there lately o well such is life
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Post by wisejester7 on Sept 9, 2006 17:45:23 GMT -5
Well, his loss was our gain. I wonder if they ever had any contact with each other once the C's made it big?
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Post by wisejester7 on Sept 13, 2006 17:01:10 GMT -5
Is Evelyn Wallace still alive?
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Sept 13, 2006 18:51:32 GMT -5
Hi WJ7 THAT's an excellent question....anxious to know the answer to that myself. Wasn't she the sweetest thing? She was the one who always responded to MY questions - I don't think I was ever able to get through to either Karen or Rich (except for the letter, as I mentioned that I actually WATCHED her read) when I sent mail to their PO Box, or their home, prior to that. But Ev Wallace was always on hand to answer questions, and would respond....even if it took a very long while - knew I could count on her. I'll do a bit of sleuthing, and see what I can come up with, unless someone already has this answer. Tim
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 14, 2006 1:19:53 GMT -5
I believe Ev is still alive. I had written to the fan club many times and had a little booklet of responses written by Evelyn and a few by Rosina. Unfortunately in 1990 I threw a lot of that stuff out - I felt it was time to grow up - gee now I wish I would have kept all those cherished memos and other memorabilia.
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Post by beaner on Sept 14, 2006 11:21:36 GMT -5
I want to believe that Evelyn is still with us as well. I just remember when the newsletter came saying that Rosina was going to take Evelyn's place in writing the newsletters.
When I went to Downey in 1984 and walked up to the Carpenter home on Newville Ave., I'm not sure whether it was Evelyn or Rosina. I knew what each looked like but I was so nervous I can't tell you now what I even saw except for a brief conversation that she and I shared there at the door.
She did say that Mr. and Mrs. Carpenter were out back but that they couldn't speak with everyone that came to the door cause there were so many all the time. I guess I wish I picked the right day that they WOULD speak to visitors. Shucks!!
Beaner
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 14, 2006 23:56:41 GMT -5
I want to believe that Evelyn is still with us as well. I just remember when the newsletter came saying that Rosina was going to take Evelyn's place in writing the newsletters. When I went to Downey in 1984 and walked up to the Carpenter home on Newville Ave., I'm not sure whether it was Evelyn or Rosina. I knew what each looked like but I was so nervous I can't tell you now what I even saw except for a brief conversation that she and I shared there at the door. She did say that Mr. and Mrs. Carpenter were out back but that they couldn't speak with everyone that came to the door cause there were so many all the time. I guess I wish I picked the right day that they WOULD speak to visitors. Shucks!! Beaner Awww too bad... That would have been great to be able to talk with mom and dad Carpenter.
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Post by wisejester7 on Sept 15, 2006 7:47:04 GMT -5
I want to believe that Evelyn is still with us as well. I just remember when the newsletter came saying that Rosina was going to take Evelyn's place in writing the newsletters. When I went to Downey in 1984 and walked up to the Carpenter home on Newville Ave., I'm not sure whether it was Evelyn or Rosina. I knew what each looked like but I was so nervous I can't tell you now what I even saw except for a brief conversation that she and I shared there at the door. She did say that Mr. and Mrs. Carpenter were out back but that they couldn't speak with everyone that came to the door cause there were so many all the time. I guess I wish I picked the right day that they WOULD speak to visitors. Shucks!! Beaner Gosh Beaner, what would you have said to them or asked them if you got that opportunity? 1984 was just a year (or less, depending on what month you were there) after Karen's sudden death. That would have been a touchy time for all involved. On the other hand, you might have brought them joy in knowing that their "kids" were thought of so well, even given the circumstances. I wish you HAD gotten the opportunity to speak to Mr. and Mrs. C. What did you say to the woman who opened the door for you? ;-)WJ7
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Post by wisejester7 on Oct 10, 2006 7:32:23 GMT -5
Why did Richard keep Karen in the dark in terms of letting her know which songs she was to sing?
Reportedly, Richard would not tell Karen what she was to sing until they got to the studio. Even if she asked, which could be days in advance of recording, he still wouldn't let her in on the plans.
I find this odd of Richard. Was he trying to control every aspect of production? Was he trying to keep the song 'fresh' ( a la Superstar...one take)? Did he use this information (his knowledge of what was happening and not letting Karen in on it) to keep Karen in check?
Since he carried her voice in his head when scouting for or writing a song I wonder if he was (at times) using Karen as more of a 'plug-n-play' component to their production.
If Richard did control Karen (and the Carpenters) by micro managing...even the things his partner (Karen) would normally be in charge of (i.e. her voice and her musical input/her opinions and sway over songs chosen/putting her mark in), then it is not surprising he was against her solo 'Karen Carpenter' album's release.
Karen might have seen the need for growth and she wanted to try new things. What she caught was a breath of fresh air when she was recording in New York. There she had a voice in every aspect of production...and found her opinion was listened to and valued. They saw her as a vibrant artist who had something to say...and they were listening. How novel for Karen! and how sad : ( that she had to leave home to find that support.
Thoughts?
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 10, 2006 9:34:37 GMT -5
I think it's a combination of the reasons you've listed Wisejester. I think one reason was to keep the spontaneity in Karen's performance - but then again there wasn't much room for spontaneity as Richard wrote every breath Karen sang - he even directed where she would inhale and exhale in the songs for the best control of breath. Richard wrote when she would sing in her upper voice and when she would use that basement voice. He had almost complete control over how, when and where Karen sang each note in every Carpenters song. Even "Superstar" was completely mapped out. Yes, the lyric was on a napkin and it was the first take - but believe me before that first take - Richard had to have coached Karen quite a bit in how to sing the song. This is not to say that Karen didn't know how to sing - because she is certainly one of the best of all time - but Richard was the arranger - he wrote all those vocal arrangements that we hear on the recordings.
Good point about Karen's solo - atleast she was able to choose the songs she wanted to record. I feel her solo album is a better depiction of the person who Karen was and the type of song she wanted to be related with and remembered for. I think she really wanted to be more of a "fun" girl instead of a "little girl blue" - which is what I believe Richard wanted her to be. Now with her solo album there were arrangers also - Rod Temperton did most of the vocal arrangements - which means he wrote when Karen sings up and when she sings down, when she takes a breath and so forth - though with her solo album I believe Karen had more input on how she sang her songs - then she had with Carpenters records.
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Post by enigma on Oct 10, 2006 17:18:52 GMT -5
Rick I think you know my response to what you just said will not be in agreement but it does lead me to a question you may be able to answer (or you may have already answered and I forgot) Please do not think I am inciting debate here because really I am not and I am serious about this question. I do not know alot about arranging so bear with me and forgive my ignorance on this subject here's my question/inquiry If Richard was so intricate in the way the Carpenter songs turned out; he told Karen every note, breath interpretaion pronounciation etc that went into Karens vocals why can he not do the same with a new vocalist or with his own vocals. I listen to his solo records and some other artists he has produced and don't really hear even an echoe of what Karen did vocally. Is it because he does not have as much control over the artists he produces as he did with Karen or something I am missing besides the obvious absence of Karen herself? I figure they should at least sound simular or more simular than they do including Richard himself. Now I am not saying you are incorrect you are likely right on the money and history supports what you say (interviews etc) I just can't understand why Richard can't reproduce that sound or even something simular with another artist maybe its deliberate on his part. Also I am in no way suggesting that Richard could replace Karen that is not possible I am just curious about this is all. Again hope this does not come off in the wrong light and I hope this is not too far off topic.
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Post by wisejester7 on Oct 10, 2006 19:07:20 GMT -5
If Richard was so intricate in the way the Carpenter songs turned out; he told Karen every note, breath interpretaion pronounciation etc that went into Karens vocals why can he not do the same with a new vocalist or with his own vocals. I listen to his solo records and some other artists he has produced and don't really hear even an echoe of what Karen did vocally. Is it because he does not have as much control over the artists he produces as he did with Karen or something I am missing besides the obvious absence of Karen herself? I figure they should at least sound simular or more simular than they do including Richard himself. Now I am not saying you are incorrect you are likely right on the money and history supports what you say (interviews etc) I just can't understand why Richard can't reproduce that sound or even something simular with another artist maybe its deliberate on his part. There is the theory that 'those who can, do...and those who can't, teach'. You have brought to light an interesting point, which boiled down is, why isn't that 'magic' there with Richard or those he coaches? This is not easily answered. Richard could sing OR teach until he is blue in the face and not ever match the qualities he seeks. Perhaps musically the magic can be derived, but so much of the 'Carpenters' musicial magic was Karen's vocals and how she delivered the song. Richard himself said he had a 'background type' voice. He recognized that Karen had a natural 'lead type' voice. Even if he scoures the world in search of another 'Karen', he'll never find it. He knows this, too. But what can he do? Richard, like Karen, was born to make music. His forte is instrumental, though.
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 10, 2006 22:39:54 GMT -5
The biggest answer to your question enigma is the simple fact that karen Carpenter was a vocal stylist of the highest form. She was a quick study (as I remember Richard stating in an interview somewhere). She was able to easily learn a vocal arrangement and quicly and flawlessly interpret it in her own style.
Other singers such as Akiko and Scott Grimes are good singers but not anywhere close to the finesse Karen possessed. Karen could turn any arrangers vocal arrangement into a masterpiece - she had a gift. If you're just an average singer it doesn't matter how good the arrangement is - it's just going to come out average. I'm sure Richard has mapped out his own vocal arrangements - but again as far as singers go he's pretty good - but he's no Karen Carpenter.
I'm certain Richard composed vocal arrangements for both Dionne Warwick and Dusty Springfield - both being professional vocalists they most likely were thrilled to be coached by the master Richard Carpenter. Both of their vocal performances were outstanding on the album "Time" - but still not Karen Carpenter. Richard knew Karen's voice perfectly. Her voice was imbedded in her subconscious - and his best work is the work he did with Karen.
As for vocal arrangements go - not all groups get as much into their vocal arrangements - but any group that has well sculpted vocals relies heavily on professional vocal arrangements and vocal coaches. Groups like Manhattan Transfer put a lot of work into their vocals, their songs are sculpted and formed to perfection - everything from the music, the lyrics and the vocals. Cheryl Bentyne and Bobby McFerrin are just two of several who composed the vocal arrangements for Manhattan Transfer. Carpenters fall in the genre of absloute perfect vocal arrangements - they were flawless in their vocals and Richard is as much responsible for Carpenters' vocal sound as Karen is.
Enigma it is fine that you asked this question. I enjoy conversation of this level about music. I had the opportunity of working with an outstanding vocal arranger and coach in my years in music - I learned a lot from him.
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Post by Prisoner_Walking on Oct 11, 2006 16:30:31 GMT -5
Hi Everyone! Interesting debate.
Personally, I suspect that Richard probably ADVISED Karen regarding breathing, delivery etc. but I don't think we should under estimate Karen's input and I certainly don't think he "coached" Karen in the way a singing tutor might.
Unless I'm mistaken, a few times in the Ray Coleman biography Richard mentions that he pretty much left Karen to get on with the vocals. I think on one occasion he criticized her pronounciation of the word "you" like "yew" and she didn't like that. I think Richard probably made it known how he felt about her performances, but I truly believe she was the master of her own instrument - she formed her own style and technique.
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 12, 2006 2:57:42 GMT -5
Hi Everyone! Interesting debate.
Personally, I suspect that Richard probably ADVISED Karen regarding breathing, delivery etc. but I don't think we should under estimate Karen's input and I certainly don't think he "coached" Karen in the way a singing tutor might.
Unless I'm mistaken, a few times in the Ray Coleman biography Richard mentions that he pretty much left Karen to get on with the vocals. I think on one occasion he criticized her pronounciation of the word "you" like "yew" and she didn't like that. I think Richard probably made it known how he felt about her performances, but I truly believe she was the master of her own instrument - she formed her own style and technique. I have read in several places that Richard had composed most of the music including the vocals - he had it down to where the breaths were placed, when Karen should sing in her head voice, basement voice and so forth. He had major input in the way she sang. Yes, she was a master of her own instrument (as Richard said several times "Karen was a quick study") - but it was Richard who was composing all the arrangements - vocal and instrumental. On a lead sheet - the notes are all mapped out and the vocalists sing the notes transcribed.
The fact is Richard was the composer - and I'm not saying that Karen wasn't a master of her own art and she certainly had her own style - but someone had to compose the excellent vocal arrangements heard on Carpenters' records - those fantastic vocals didn't just happen by themselves. Everything we hear on their records was rehearsed and rehearsed and perfected and then perfected again. Richard Carpenter (and Karen) was a perfectionist - he did not leave much up to chance in the music or vocals. There's a reason why Richard's arrangements for vocals received numerous Grammy Award nominations.
As for pronunciation of words - I'm sure Richard didn't really say too much about that - but as far as the melody of the songs - the notes sang - the breaths taken - the pauses - the notes held (how long notes were held) - when certain phrases were cut off - all that was Richard's work. Yes, Karen had to have some input and I'm sure added her ideas and shaped some of the songs from Richard's original ideas - and certainly the soul, the emotion and depth in the vocals was all Karen - but the arrangements and composition of the vocals were all Richard for the most part.
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 12, 2006 10:48:01 GMT -5
Let me rephrase myself in this point.
By all means Karen is one fantastic singer. The main reason I love Carpenters and Karen Carpenter solo is for Karen's voice. Yes, Richard wrote all those arrangements - but as for Karen's voice itself that did come from within her own self. The sheer purity in her voice definitely can not be written by an arranger - that was all Karen. Karen's perfect pitch and her 3 1/2 octave range is all her. She also always sang on key (as long as the arrangement was kept in her range). She sang with an intense emotion and soul and she had silky smooth tones - again all Karen. Her voice was bold yet soft and sweet - this was inborn for Karen.
On to Richard in conjunction with Karen's vocals. As others have stated, "we should not under estimate Karen" - Let's not under estimate Richard. He was the arranger and the composer. This is a fact and it's listed on their albums. Not one of them lists Karen as the arranger. On those numerous Grammy nominations for vocal arrangements - it's Richard who is listed as the arranger. He composed all the arrangements - vocal and instrumental. On a lead sheet - the notes are all mapped out and the vocalists sing the notes transcribed.
The melody of the songs - the notes sang - the breaths taken - the pauses - the notes held (how long notes were held) - when certain phrases were cut off - all that was Richard's work. Yes, Karen had to have some input and I'm sure added her ideas and shaped some of the songs from Richard's original ideas - and certainly the soul, the emotion and depth in the vocals was all Karen - but the arrangements and composition of the vocals were all Richard.
Here are a few passages from the Ray Coleman book which support what I just commented on:
"After Richard encouraged her, she sang with our group periodically. She was not really impressive at first, but Richard saw her potential and she'd do everything he said. And that's what Richard needed... someone to do what he wanted them to do." page 54
"Richard lost no time after the show hectoring the culprit. Equally, he and Karen would let fly at each other in such inquests. Sometimes Karen might take too long on a part and Richard wanted it to go faster." - page 119... in this passage it speaks of how Karen would often sing songs her way during concerts - despite Richard's arrangement - this indicates Richard does have vocal arrangements for all the songs.
"Writing of their sound precision, Jeff Thomas said Richard's, "dedication, concern, direction, and ability" were visually apparent as he led his band through a fine blend of instrumental and vocal arrangements and harmonies." - page 122 (the band Richard led includes Karen).
"It would become her toughest song to sing because Richard's demanding, elongated phrasing allowed little time to breathe during certain keys." - in reference to "Goodbye To Love" - page 125.
"On a difficult reading like "Goodbye To Love," Richard devised precisely the moments when Karen could breathe and advised her, particularly before singing long passages and she would interpret his advice successfully." - page 183.
There are others in other publicationsand interviews which I will share with you.
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