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Post by beaner on Oct 12, 2006 13:00:41 GMT -5
In reply to WiseJester7's question as to what I would have done if I had met Mr. and Mrs. Carpenter, I would have pretty much told them what was in a letter than I left with the housekeeper.
Much of it was private but in a nutshell I would have told Mr. and Mrs. C. how much I loved Karen and the Carpenters music as well as how wonderful they seemed to be outside of the music arena too.
I especially would have told them how much of an influence Karen was on me in many many ways and that I was so proud to be one of their biggest fans.
You are so right about it still being fresh in their minds being only 1 year later. It felt like it was just yesterday when I had visited the crypt in Cypress, CA. That was probably the most special part of my visit to CA that year!
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Post by GoodOldDreams on Oct 12, 2006 17:54:03 GMT -5
I agree. Here are a couple of relevant questions and answers from the official Carpenters website at richardandkarencarpenter.com, which demonstrate how much Richard understood the potentials of Karen's voice and put it to great use. [yellow]Q:[/yellow] Richard, how could you tell that a song was tailor-made for Karen? [yellow]A:[/yellow] It’s really where it would dwell in a particular register, not spend too much of its time upstairs, because Karen had such a marvelous sound in the lower reaches of her voice. How words sing, A's, O's and U's are better sounds than E's and I's. That’s one of many reasons why "Superstar" worked so well, for Karen; it's low, it has “long ago”, “far away”, “second show”, “it’s just the radio”… it’s absolutely perfect. Again, we were family, and a lot of this was intuitive; it would have a nice melody and I knew Karen’s voice would give me chills singing it. [yellow]Q:[/yellow] What is the lowest note Karen sang? [yellow]A:[/yellow] D, below middle C, on A Song For You. Only Yesterday starts on a low E flat, below middle C. As a rule, I wouldn’t take her any lower than that. [yellow]Q:[/yellow] When you recorded with Karen, what was her highest held note, and on what song? [yellow]A:[/yellow] High F, tripled on the second “here to remind you” on “I’ll Never Fall In Love Again” on the Close To You album. Karen probably had, with her chest and her head voice, a little over three octaves. I also recall reading somewhere that Richard thought Karen was marvelous in being able to sing long phrases in a single breath, as demonstrated in the first verse of "Goodbye to Love": "...Time and time again the chance for love has passed me by and all I know of love is how to live without it..." Finally, a couple of surprising answers: [yellow]Q:[/yellow] When you first heard "IF I HAD YOU" from Karen’s solo sessions…were you amazed at the intricate harmonies? Was Karen pleased by it? [yellow]A:[/yellow] Not quite amazed, but certainly impressed and yes, she was pleased. [My personal comment: The intricate harmonies were astounding creatively and technically, adventurous in spirit and wonderful in execution. Richard was impressed but not amazed? Where does he draw the line for this ambitious first effort? It was certainly good enough to be made into a single!][yellow]Q:[/yellow] You and Karen fit well into the category of "GREATS" in the history of popular music. Will you consider writing a book similar to those published on the Beatles, etc. that is entirely based on the production aspect of the Carpenters' music, recording, arranging/production, etc.? [yellow]A:[/yellow] Thanks, but no. [My personal comment: The idea for this proposed book is brilliant, which could be an essential component of the Carpenters' musical legacy for years to come!]
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 12, 2006 22:18:24 GMT -5
I do want to apologize if I come off a bit strong in my viewpoint about Richard and his vocal arrangements. I do not mean to put anybody down - but so many people don't realize just how much was put into these songs and that Richard was truly the musical genius behind it all. Karen did not just come into the studio and sing whatever came to her - it was all notated on lead sheets composed by Richard. Karen did add her own touches and her phrasing of Richard's arrangements were all her own (and she was one of the finest vocal interpreters of all-time) - but initially and in the end - the vocals are a product of Richard's composing skills.
Here are a few more quotes I've found which support this point:
These are from the John Tobler booklet "The Complete Guide To The Music Of The Carpenters".
"It's quite a complicated arrangement and took a lot of doing as far as all of the vocals that are on it. It's a difficult song to sing, it's rangy and it starts right off the bat with the low E flat for Karen." - page 64 in reference to the song "Only Yesterday". It's Richard who wrote the arrangement including the low E which Karen sings at the beginning.
"Richard knew a good song when he heard it, and developed an arrangement that, as delivered by Karen, truly put the listener through the emotional wringer." - page 66 in reference to the song "Solitaire". Finally, a couple of surprising answers: [yellow]Q:[/yellow] When you first heard "IF I HAD YOU" from Karen’s solo sessions…were you amazed at the intricate harmonies? Was Karen pleased by it? [yellow]A:[/yellow] Not quite amazed, but certainly impressed and yes, she was pleased. [My personal comment: The intricate harmonies were astounding creatively and technically, adventurous in spirit and wonderful in execution. Richard was impressed but not amazed? Where does he draw the line for this ambitious first effort? It was certainly good enough to be made into a single!]Interesting point you make Dreams, by bringing this comment up from Richard. As much as I respect Richard I truly feel he is way off base here - but than again he's too close to the subject to be unbiased. It's clear that "If I Had You" (from Karen's solo album) is a masterpiece of a song. The jazz styled musicianship is of the best of the best - outstanding in all ways. Karen's vocal is flawless all the way through and that complex vocal arrangement at the end is one of the best I've ever heard in all of popular music. Rod Temperton is responsible for that great vocal arrangement and as far as I'm concerned if it were released in 1979 or 1980 it most likely would have garnered atleast a Grammy nomination for Temperton. Needless to say I was amazed when I first heard "If I Had You" - and I am still amazed. This song definitely contains that chill factor.
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Post by wisejester7 on Oct 12, 2006 23:27:42 GMT -5
There are many strong feelings on Richard and Karen and how they were/are perceived. Karen was vital for the success of the group. She was the voice, the soul and the heart. Richard was vital for the sucess of the group. He was the brains behind the machine we know as 'Carpenters'.
GoodOldDreams and Rick have both pointed out supporting documentation that pertains to our discussion. Leo, too, was right in that Richard DID get on Karen over her pronunciation of yew/you.
I think we know that no one is 'attacking' any one else. . .so no apologies are needed. ;-) We are all passionate about Karen and Richard. Passion is a strong emotion...so our words might come out strong sounding, but they show how much we care.
This type of discussion is thought provoking and stimulating. I think that now, after years of searching for someone like Karen, Richard realizes just how good he (they) had it. Together they were a complete package.
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Post by Prisoner_Walking on Oct 13, 2006 3:59:27 GMT -5
I think we know that no one is 'attacking' any one else. . .so no apologies are needed. ;-) We are all passionate about Karen and Richard. Passion is a strong emotion...so our words might come out strong sounding, but they show how much we care. This type of discussion is thought provoking and stimulating. I think that now, after years of searching for someone like Karen, Richard realizes just how good he (they) had it. Together they were a complete package. I could not agree more. What are forum's like this for if we can't indulge in a healthy debate once in a while? The only danger is that because we are not talking face to face, and we can't see eachother's expressions, passion and enthusiasm can occasionally be mistaken for forcefulness...by coming across a little blunt in my previous reply, I seem to have waded into deep water with you guys - so I'm getting out while I can! LOL
I suspect though that we are all pretty much "fighting for the same cause". I believe that the majority of fans here understand that Richard was the creative force behind the Carpenters - I don't think anyone could ever dispute that fact.
Rick - many of the quotes you and GoodOldDreams reminded us of, do indeed support what you are saying. Apologies if I misinterpreted your comments.
Have a great weekend all!
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Post by wisejester7 on Oct 13, 2006 6:20:43 GMT -5
Well said, Leo!
But you don't have to get out of the water - there are no sharks around. ;-)
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 13, 2006 9:49:00 GMT -5
Yes, thank you Leo, thank you Wisejester7... you are both (and everyone else in this somewhat family are wonderful).
My purpose many times is to bring to light what really is and was. So many people have many misconceptions of the Carpenters because of comments made by the press and others in the Carpenters camp (including Richard and Karen) or just general misbeliefs. One of the points I like to bring up is the fact that Carpenters were not just your ordinary singers of "love songs" - not that love songs are bad - I love a great love song - but Carpenters musical spectrum was very broad. People who only know their hits do not realize just how varied the music of the Carpenters was. They covered several genres - and if you read the liner notes in their albums you will realize that many of the musicians on their albums were also musicians on Frank Zappa's albums - this is something many people do not relaize.
Another misconception which I also like to touch on is the belief that Karen's album is a "disco" album and that the songs were sang in to high of a range for her. Karen's vocals on this album were outstanding - especially on "If I Had You", "If We Try", "Remember When Lovin' Took All Night", "Make Believe It's Your First Time" and "Guess I Just Lost My Head". The album also was not a "disco" album - it only contained three disco tunes, it also had one new wave - rock tune, a pop ballad, a country ballad, a power pop tune, and several smooth jazz-pop tunes. The album overall had a jazz basis to it. If anything it was primarily a jazz influenced album. The musicianship and vocal arrangements on this album were spectacular. The album in my mind also had atleast four songs which were strong enough to be a single - "Making Love In The Afternoon", "If I Had You", "Guess I Just Lost My Head" and "Make Believe It's Your First Time".
Another misconception is that "Horizon" had a drag to it. This is so untrue. Yes, the album is primarily dark and moody - but drag - I think not. The album was exciting and dynmaic from beginning to end. The album is sophisticated and every song on it is outstanding. This is Carpenters pinnacle of artistic endeavor and is technically their most advanced album. This album is a true masterpiece.
Any others to add here...
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Post by enigma on Oct 13, 2006 14:46:01 GMT -5
I will say only one thing on the last debate what my feeling on the subject is is simply this I read all over of Richards contributions to the Carpenters Rick I don't know of any source that reports on the Carpenters not giving Richard Full if not too much credit for the Carpenters legacy. My feeliong has always been that Karen is often underepresented as a contributing member of the Carpenters Yes at first she knew nothing of any aspect of the music business and it was probably 90% Richard (all the thins you mentioned he did) but as you said Karen was a quick study and I feel she had alot more control over vocals (and other things) as Time went on. We all know Karen had vocal transformations throughout her career there is a difference between Offering and Close To You and so non until her death. I am sorry that is not 100% Richards arrangements doing this Karen was developing and learning as she went along and her solo record shows this she brought alot of her own elements to this record echoes of the Carpenters dispite having a different producer and arranger. I just find Karen does not Get enough credit for her contributions to the Carpenters is all I know alot of this has already been said and the debate put to bed but I just want to express my view on the subject. Now Karens solo record being disco? is a short sighted view on the record Karen learned from her many years with the Carpenters that variety was the key to sucess and through those years developed a confidence that she could tackle any style of song. Yes there were a few disco tracks but there were pop pop-rock some soul and jazz styles thrown in and a little country to boot. This album has great variety yet it flowed rather well in fact it was a great record top to bottom but no you can't label a varied work like this into a particular style that is no more accurate that trying to pigeon hole a Carpenters record into one particular style there is way too much variety for that. I mean come on people when did Peter Cetera ever write a disco song or Russell Javors for that matter? Case Closed not a disco album in my view Now Horizon; well I suppose the drag label it got is from the fact that for the most part Horizon was slower material not alot of fast upbeat numbers and also lyrically it was the darkest record the Carpenters did to that point. For me it was far from a drag it was an emotional rollercaoster there were definately sad, down parts in it for me but it was so beautiful and just a quality piece of work. To me its like any great works you get happy, you cry, you are amazed and after your done listening to Horizon you know you got much more than your moneys worth so no this record really does not drag its just slowed down a bit so you can take the emotional journey and absorb all this magnificent piece of work has to offer and thats not a bad thing thats a really good thing at least for me it is.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Oct 13, 2006 15:15:22 GMT -5
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Post by wisejester7 on Oct 13, 2006 16:46:41 GMT -5
That's GREAT news! I don't know how you found your information, but your news couldn't be better. ;-)
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Post by wisejester7 on Oct 13, 2006 16:59:35 GMT -5
I will say only one thing on the last debate what my feeling on the subject is is simply this I read all over of Richards contributions to the Carpenters Rick I don't know of any source that reports on the Carpenters not giving Richard Full if not too much credit for the Carpenters legacy. My feeliong has always been that Karen is often underepresented as a contributing member of the Carpenters Yes at first she knew nothing of any aspect of the music business and it was probably 90% Richard (all the thins you mentioned he did) but as you said Karen was a quick study and I feel she had alot more control over vocals (and other things) as Time went on. We all know Karen had vocal transformations throughout her career there is a difference between Offering and Close To You and so non until her death. I am sorry that is not 100% Richards arrangements doing this Karen was developing and learning as she went along and her solo record shows this she brought alot of her own elements to this record echoes of the Carpenters dispite having a different producer and arranger. I just find Karen does not Get enough credit for her contributions to the Carpenters is all I know alot of this has already been said and the debate put to bed but I just want to express my view on the subject. Now Karens solo record being disco? is a short sighted view on the record Karen learned from her many years with the Carpenters that variety was the key to sucess and through those years developed a confidence that she could tackle any style of song. Yes there were a few disco tracks but there were pop pop-rock some soul and jazz styles thrown in and a little country to boot. This album has great variety yet it flowed rather well in fact it was a great record top to bottom but no you can't label a varied work like this into a particular style that is no more accurate that trying to pigeon hole a Carpenters record into one particular style there is way too much variety for that. I mean come on people when did Peter Cetera ever write a disco song or Russell Javors for that matter? Case Closed not a disco album in my view Now Horizon; well I suppose the drag label it got is from the fact that for the most part Horizon was slower material not alot of fast upbeat numbers and also lyrically it was the darkest record the Carpenters did to that point. For me it was far from a drag it was an emotional rollercaoster there were definately sad, down parts in it for me but it was so beautiful and just a quality piece of work. To me its like any great works you get happy, you cry, you are amazed and after your done listening to Horizon you know you got much more than your moneys worth so no this record really does not drag its just slowed down a bit so you can take the emotional journey and absorb all this magnificent piece of work has to offer and thats not a bad thing thats a really good thing at least for me it is. Enigma , you bring to the table a really good point - Karen was a FAST study. I'm sure as time passed she 'came into her own' in terms of musical/vocal direction and development. She respected the begeezes out of Richard, but I'm sure they must have had a few 'discussions' over the matter on the 'ways' and 'means' of presenting a song. Rick pointed out... "Richard lost no time after the show hectoring the culprit. Equally, he and Karen would let fly at each other in such inquests. Sometimes Karen might take too long on a part and Richard wanted it to go faster." - page 119... in this passage it speaks of how Karen would often sing songs her way during concerts - despite Richard's arrangement - this indicates Richard does have vocal arrangements for all the songs." ... which goes to show that Karen was indeed trying to put her flair and mark on the songs they performed. I think this was hard for Richard due to the fact that Karen had always followed his will in the beginning. Maybe this is the start of Richard holding out on Karen...as far as letting her know what she was to sing.
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 13, 2006 22:46:21 GMT -5
I think this was hard for Richard due to the fact that Karen had always followed his will in the beginning. Maybe this is the start of Richard holding out on Karen...as far as letting her know what she was to sing. Wisejester7... this is an interesting point you bring across. This could be so. I think Richard held out on Karen because she was so gifted at learning the vocal parts so quickly and flawlessly and he wanted to capture as much of that first time singing it as he could - as opposed to something she practiced over and over. This was probably as close to spontaneity as Carpenters got.
... just my take on this theory...
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 13, 2006 22:54:13 GMT -5
Okay, I will make my last point on the vocal arrangements. I understand what some of you are saying - but the fact is on Carpenters records the vocals were certainly composed and arranged by Richard - that doesn't mean that Karen didn't put her own flair into the songs nor does it take away from her contributions and unique style and phrasing (that is not what I am saying). But as precise as Carpenters albums were in both the music and vocals there is just no way that there weren't vocal and musical arrangements. Karen Carpenter did not go into the studio with Richard saying, "okay Karen here are the lyrics just start singing - and let's hope it works out". There was too much going on in those records. I'm sure as the years went on Karen did sit down with Richard and assist in mapping out part of the vocal arrangements on some of the songs. But definitely every single album and song the Carpenters recorded and also Karen's solo songs all had vocal arrangements composed for Karen to interpret. Karen was one of the finest vocal interpreters ever in the history of music. She was a quick study in that she could be given a lead sheet and learn and perform the vocal arrangement almost instantaneously. Not many people can do that. Most people have to rehearse and rehearse a vocal part until they get each note memorized perfectly. Each note in a vocal arrangement is written so that it plays perfectly with each note of the instruments being played. If it's going to sound good it all has to fit together note for note - including the vocals. NSync (not a favorite of mine) had some great vocal arrangements - these guys were tight in their vocals - but they ceretainly did not get together in the studio and just start singing - they had very precise vocal parts. A vocal arrangement is somewhat like choreography. A professional dancer does not go out on stage and just start dancing - their moves are very precisely choreographed and they practice their choreography until they have each movement perfectly memorized. Although, a dancer has choreographed steps - it's the dancers own soul and style which bring the choreography to life. Just as Karen did have vocal arrangements to interpret - it was her own beautiful soft and silky soulful tones which brought these outstanding arrangements to life. Karen was the dancer of the Carpenters and Richard was the choreographer. She learned her steps quickly and flawlessly - she was a true professional and a true artist.
Now Enigma... I understand what you are saying about Karen's voice. I agree as far as Karen's voice itself - yes that was all her - she had a beautiful voice and she did grow and develop and her voice did change as the years went on. Her voice did become more refined and pure. Her vocal style was definitely all her own - that was not Richard's doing. The way Karen interpreted Richard's vocal arrangements was also all Karen's doing. I totally understand that. I guess the point I was bringing about was more on the construction of the music and the vocal - the "choreography" of it all. The technical side of Carpenters music really enthralls me as Richard was truly quite gifted in being able to compose some beautifully precise and intricate vocal and musical arrangements.
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Post by GoodOldDreams on Oct 14, 2006 0:39:18 GMT -5
I like your analogy of the relationship between choreographer and dancer to that between Richard and Karen when they were performing. As Karen matured, as expressed above, her voice became more refined and pure. To me, the re-make of "Ticket to Ride" on the Singles 1969-1973 album (at Karen's own insistence) is superior to the vocals in the original single version on the "Ticket to Ride" album. Also, the pure vocals (and simple orchestration) in "Make Believe It's Your First Time" on Karen's solo album has even more of the "chill factor" for me than the lush harmonies and complex orchestration in the remake with Richard on the "Voice of the Heart" album. I think these songs exemplify how, even without Richard's direct, overarching influence, Karen's abilities cannot be underestimated.
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 14, 2006 1:10:42 GMT -5
Also, the pure vocals (and simple orchestration) in "Make Believe It's Your First Time" on Karen's solo album has even more of the "chill factor" for me than the lush harmonies and complex orchestration in the remake with Richard on the "Voice of the Heart" album. I think these songs exemplify how Karen's abilities cannot be underestimated even without Richard's direct, overarching influence. I also prefer Karen's solo recording of "Make Believe It's Your First Time" over the "Voice Of The Heart" version. Karen sang this song so beautifully with warmth and purity. It was Rod Temperton who scored the vocal arrangement for the solo recording while Bob James composed the song's musical arrangement. Richard composed both the vocal and musical arrangement on the recording which ended up on VOTH. I feel Temperton had a great understanding of Karen's voice - same with Rob Mounsey who composed the vocal arrangement for "Guess I Just Lost My Head" - he kept everything completely in the middle of Karen's range of comfort. I would have loved to hear more work between Karen and Rob Mounsey.
A little sidenote on Vocal Arrangements - one of my all-time favorite vocal arrangements is for the Beach Boys song "Good Vibrations". Brian Wilson constructed this arrangement. In certain parts there are four vocal parts which interweave with each other and really create a great effect. This makes me think of the great arrangement Richard wrote for the opening of "Johnny Angel" - Karen's voice weaves together in sepearate parts to create an otherworldy heavenly effect. Great work.
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