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Post by Rick Henry on Mar 27, 2005 11:06:22 GMT -5
I always found it interesting as to the fact that Karen never cared for "Solitaire". Especially considering this is one of most intense vocals and such an outstanding musical arrangements. Anybody have any theories as to why she may not have cared for the song. I will come back with my ideas on this.
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Post by shalalala on Mar 27, 2005 13:19:57 GMT -5
My theory, for what it's worth, is that Karen didn't care much for the song WRITER, and perhaps that influenced her opinion of the song itself.
It is my understanding that Richard had to fire Neil Sedaka during the "Horizon" concert tour because the Carpenters thought their opening act was beginning to upstage them. She plainly did not like Sedaka.
"Solitaire" is so beautiful, and her reading is so authentic. It demonstrates her vocal range like no other song I've heard. Hard to believe she didn't like it.
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Post by cam83 on Mar 27, 2005 13:32:12 GMT -5
Hello, Actually Karen was FOND of Neil Sedaka. She recorded SOLITAIRE before the summer tour in the States in 1975, so it's not that she disliked the song because of Neil. I think she disliked the song because she found it a boring song to sing. Or a boring theme...slightly depressing...no meat in it... I think it showcases her vocals wonderfully. It's rangy and she goes from high to low with impeccable ease. I have to admit, when I was younger I absolutely HATED this song. Thought it was boring and blah. Just didn't care for it at all, until one day, I fell in love with it...more so because I started to sing along with her, and try to blend my voice with hers...(I am a tenor) and I loved to sing that low note along with her at the end of a song(pardon the pun!)...and this became one of my FAVE Carpenters songs of all time!!! Just magestic!!
My thoughts, Cam PS. Then in 1976, they recorded BREAKING UP IS HARD TO DO...which I think is tongue in cheek, laugh at themselves at the Break up and turmoil as a result of the incident with Neil Sedaka. But if they disliked him so much, they NEVER would have recorded another song by him. As Neil states, that since then, every time he saw the Carpenters, they have been cordial to one another.
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Post by enigma on Mar 27, 2005 19:16:20 GMT -5
Ok first of all it was Richard who fired Neil Sedaka. Neil Sedaka was getting a better esponse from the crowds and critics when he opened for the Carpenters he was stealing the show. No headliner likes to be upstaged by their opening act and when Neil started interacting with the audience Richard was furious he did not feel it was proper protocol for Neil to do what he did and Richard threw a fit backstage and started yelling and demanded Neil be fired Karen had nothing to do with the decision. In fact according to Neil himself on the night of the firing Karen came up to Neil eyes welled up in tears gave him a hug and said "I (Karen) am so sorry Neil" at the time Neil did not know what Karen was talking about until just after when he was fired. Karens reaction to Neils firing clearly indicated to me she had nothing to do with the decision and did not hate or resent Neil at all. Besides I think Solitaire was recorded before the firing and the fact that Breaking up was done after was apparently a sign that a truce was declared between Richard and Neil. Neil always said he had no hard feelings over the firing it only helped his career as he became the headliner on his next tour.
Now on to Solitaire another possibility as to why Karen did not like the song is the fact that according to Richard it is a difficult song to sing and though Karen sang it so well she may have had difficulty nailing the song or it may have been difficult to sing it live as she may have had to do on the tour. Artists often do not like their best work for some reason. Maybe someone can ask Richard this question on the web site he may be able to offer more info,
&^ *%
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Post by Rick Henry on Mar 27, 2005 21:51:28 GMT -5
My thought on this song is that Karen didn't like it because she didn't care for Sedaka. Yes, it was recorded before the big blow out happened with Sedaka, but the event happened only a few weeks/months after it's release. So, it is logical to think that it had to do with Sedaka. I can completely understand that thought. As myself having made music for ten years plus. One of my most popular songs was co-written with a person who came to cause much strife in my professional life. After a big blowout with this person I completely stopped performing the song and I just didn't care for it anymore. I didn't care for it because it reminded me of an incident which upset me quite a bit. Though as time has gone on wounds have healed and I now love the song again. Karen though didn't live long enough for wounds to heal. Some wounds take longer then 7-8 years to heal. Enigma and Cam I can also understand your theories on "Solitaire". There's many ways this can go. I don't think an answer to the reason why Karen doesn't like "Solitaire" will be given us. For this reason I am apt to believe it was something personal and not mechanical - such as being too hard to sing. But then Cam mentions that C's recorded "Breaking Up Is Hard To Do". I just always felt this was done as a way to say no hard feelings. This could have been a sincere gesture on K&R's part or it could have just been what's called "good business". just my thoughts...
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Post by smoothie2 on Mar 28, 2005 0:06:50 GMT -5
???hi..good info. and insight ....Solitaire was never one of my favorites, but seems the more I hear it now the more I've come to like it. Sounds like as a whole, that there was definitely some bad vibes linked in the background ..the relationships K. and R. had w/ Sedaka...would definitely play some part in Karen singing it. I'm glad they recorded it though in the long run...I like the more upbeat songs like Only Yest. and others more....could be Karen also liked the happier songs.
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Mariah Andrews
CERTIFIED SILVER MEMBER
29/Lesbian M2F TS/Nevada. Longtime Carpenters Fan.
Posts: 49
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Post by Mariah Andrews on Mar 28, 2005 1:07:23 GMT -5
Maybe Karen had an idea about what Solitaire really meant...
My friend and I were listening to that song in the car and I wondered if Solitaire meant...you know...a man all alone, no girlfriend nor wife, needs to let his tiger out of the cage and no other person in the room....forget it, my mind's in the gutter again.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Mar 28, 2005 20:53:38 GMT -5
$&? Perhaps Karen related this song to something that happened that was hurtful or upsetting the first time she heard it, and that feeling never left her? For example - let's say Rich gave her a tape of a new song he wanted her to do, and she listened to it during a ride on the bus from one place to another, and something was going on during that period that she related the song to..therefore, she didn't want to record it, because it brought up a bad memory for her?
I've never heard anything "official" as to the reason she didn't like it.
So, it's just a theory - *% @@ %??
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Post by Nessie71 on Mar 29, 2005 1:59:33 GMT -5
Hello In the 1975 A&M compendium interview Richard says they spent two weeks recording Solitaire and Karen says: "It was very boring. We never got the right feel." So therefore I would be inclined to agree with Cams theory that she was just bored with the song.
Take it easy, Nessie
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Post by Moe on Mar 29, 2005 3:12:06 GMT -5
I have always loved the song, but everyone has their own taste. You can admire and respect something or someone and not really like them. Karen may have known the song was good, but didn't didn't warm to it for her own personal preference.
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Post by cam83 on Mar 29, 2005 3:24:05 GMT -5
I guess I can understand as a singer....a bit, I mean. Like, I sing in a Cathedral sometimes, or at Christian functions, sometimes acappella or sometimes to accompaniment. Some songs I absolutely hate, although they sound great and I get great feedback, and it records well, but for me, it's just boring. I just don't like the song...the feel...etc. So maybe that is how Karen felt about it. Although it is a GREAT, AWESOME, WONDERFULLY done song!!!! Showcases her immense range, mood, atmosphere, intonation, and her crystalline pipes. Cam
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Post by karen69roland on Mar 29, 2005 4:11:36 GMT -5
One thing is for sure, *Solitaire* has an extremely slow tempo..., that makes it very difficult to sing..., I know that 'cause all through the '90s I was auditioning female vocalist and no one could do it as precise as Karen did. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Apr 1, 2005 23:36:56 GMT -5
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Post by cam83 on Apr 1, 2005 23:52:56 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing!!
Cam
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Post by Rick Henry on Apr 2, 2005 1:38:06 GMT -5
Funny that she says that because when I listen to this awesome song all I can think is wow Karen nailed it dead on and Richard's arrangement is perfect. "Solitaire" in my mind is one of the Carpenters' very best records of all. It may have a slow tempo. It's also a deep dark song. But at the same point it has a sense of energy behind it.
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Post by enigma on Apr 3, 2005 8:55:02 GMT -5
Wow I never even read that book I do not like it for many reasons but it does seem to support my post....very interesting hmmm Thanks for the info Tim. &^ *%
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Apr 3, 2005 18:28:08 GMT -5
Wow I never even read that book I do not like it for many reasons but it does seem to support my post....very interesting hmmm Thanks for the info Tim. $% Okay, here's what it says, word for word -RC: "We tried computer mix, we thought that would be a good idea, and it turned out not to be a good idea. Bet we blew two weeks on one song, "Solitaire." It just wouldn't go together, and we couldn't figure out why. I've never had that happen before. I've had times where I thought the arrangement was finished, and we'd go into mix, and then I would hear something else, and we'd run into a studio and put it on. But we're past that point. Everything was on it, and it still didn't sound right, and it turned out we just couldn't get the natural flow of the thing with the computer mix. You can just sit there and do one thing at a time. You may be getting two bars of piano that needs to be brought up at the end of the song, and you have to wait and let it go through the whole song, sit there and then raise it up and then start over." KC: "It was very boring. We never got the right feel." RC: "It took us two weeks to really find that out." I'm not contending, here, that this is the ENTIRE reason, but Enigma, your theory presents itself well. Karen was bored with the song by the time they'd finished recording it, and she never felt like they got it right. This came from page 83, the A&M Compendium (1975) Interview. Hmmmmm..interesting. Hope everyone had a great weekend. Tim ??%
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Post by Rick Henry on Apr 3, 2005 20:45:19 GMT -5
I'm amazed. Here is a song that, while admittedly difficult to arrange and sing, was to our ears masterfully done. But the artists weren't happy. Well said Dave. I agree totally with you here. This song is a masterpiece. When I listen to it I hear a beautifully recorded song in my mind recorded to perfection. In listening to this song it sounds to me like Karen and Richard did capture the flow and feel of this song perfectly.
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