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Post by Rob813 on Oct 27, 2004 20:24:00 GMT -5
Now, I consider myself to be a bonafide Carpenter fan or Carpenterphile, but I just read on this forum that Richard was/is a chain smoker. I must say, it bowled me over! I've read Ray Coleman's book cover to cover and read many other sources on the duo, but I have never read or seen a picture of Richard smoking.
Perhaps it's because of the pure, goody-goody thing, but I just never associated Richard with cigarettes. So, I got to wondering, what else don't I know? Do you know something about Karen and Richard that others might not know? If you think you do, please share it with the rest of us. You've really got me wondering...........
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Post by BethMosior on Oct 27, 2004 23:12:24 GMT -5
I have seen one photo of Richard with a cigarettes & on the music video ' I Know I Need To Be In Love' when he was on the airplane  I think that I remember reading- but can't remember where I read it- that he only smoked now & then but could stop when ever he felt like it  just as long as its not my lungs- they are a mess without smoking - I just let Richard be Richard and stick with the wonderful music  or as they say today 'Whatever'   LOL |
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Post by enigma on Oct 28, 2004 0:52:59 GMT -5
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 28, 2004 1:34:42 GMT -5
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Post by Moe on Oct 28, 2004 4:26:49 GMT -5
The Coleman bio mentioned Richard smoking an occasional cig while working on the "From the Top" box set. I am surprised with his kids, that he is a chain smoker. Is this a fact or just an observation? Again, even if it is true, it is no biggie. Just surprising...
I have seen a picture of Richard with a drink and a cig in his hand. There is one in the blue anniversary folder/book of Karen and Richard with Herb Alpert in the middle of them. I think that picture is cropped because I have seen the picture with Richard and cig is in hand. It looks to be around 1972.
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Peteruk
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Post by Peteruk on Oct 28, 2004 18:10:49 GMT -5
Hi All, Richard does smoke still -favours cigars these day with wine etc to relax / unwind Never heard from any sources / Carpenters associates that Richard chainsmoked ....possibly during his worst health periods in late 1970's -just smoked more to calm his nerves ....although Tobacco is yet another addictive drug ....and very unhealthly .... Peter |
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Peteruk
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Post by Peteruk on Oct 28, 2004 19:17:17 GMT -5
Hi Dave, Will have to log out now - SORRY HAVE BEEN REMISS IN NOT POSTING SEVERAL THREADS ON CPAC CELEBRATIONS / RICHARD & NEWHART CONCERT .... WILL TRY TO ADD FRIDAY OR MONDAY ....ANOTHER GREAT CARPENTERS EVENT ....  RICHARD WAS ON GREAT FORM AT EVENT RECEPTION -WILL ADD MORE ASAP .... BEST , PETER  |
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Post by Rob813 on Oct 28, 2004 19:22:41 GMT -5
I didn't want anybody to think I was judging Richard about having been a smoker. I don't think any less of him because of it. I just always thought of him as a non-smoker. I knew he liked wine. Of course I also knew about his Quallude addiction; again no judgement here. Richard and Karen were under tremendous pressure from everyone to continue to produce extraordinary levels of artistic quality. Who wouldn't crack under that strain?
Actually, my heart goes out to him for having been so successful and generous with his talent. Karen's death has taken a huge toll on him. I only wish him the best.
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Post by BethMosior on Oct 28, 2004 19:44:41 GMT -5
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Post by enigma on Oct 29, 2004 7:13:14 GMT -5
First very funny Dave. lol Second Dave you bring up an interesting point. Yes Karen allowed her family more control then she should have but it would have taken an enormous amount of strength to go against her family. Karen would have to be willing to risk being outcast from her family and risk her career if she opposed them (Richard was a big part of the Carpenters and losing him would be a risk). Early in Karens career she was shy and retiring and simpley would not muster up the strength to oppose her family. It was far easier to conform to make them happy that was just Karens nature others happiness over her own especially her family's. Of course the effects of this unwillingness to face those who controlled her manifested itself in her disease and it was only much later she started to oppose her family or at least Richard (I don't think she would ever have stood up to Agnes). Maybe it would have been better if she exercised more control earlier in her life but she simply could never bring herself to oppose her family. Remember she idolised Richard and would do anything for him in the beginning. Just some thoughts on the subject.    |
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Post by Rob813 on Oct 29, 2004 18:15:04 GMT -5
I agree with you Enigma that Karen was controlled by her family. Considering the heights of fame and wealth that she optained it almost seems odd that she would be so immobilized in standing up to them. Lacking in self confidence she let Richard and their parents run roughshod over her.
Later on she started to take some control, but it appears it was too little, too late. Moving into her own condo was a good start, but career problems experienced during the ascendency of disco seemed to have fueled her invertion.
Even the experts do not totally understand anorexia, but having her solo effort grounded by Richard and the execs was a hugh blow to her. Close on its' heels was the failure of her marriage. These two events seemed to have excellerated her decline.
Looking back in hindsight, we are able to decipher many of these things, but when she was in the process of living these difficulties, I'm sure she was frustrated and irritated beyond words.
It breaks my heart to know that someone who brought me and the rest of the world so much joy suffered so much during her brief life. Singing so many sad songs unfortunately foreshadowed her own unhappy demise.
We miss you Karen and love you beyond words!
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Post by Rob813 on Oct 29, 2004 23:06:21 GMT -5
Dave I appreciate your insights. I know that money and power go hand in hand, but I don't think Karen's problem was money. I believe Karen was not capable of loving herself. Restricting her food intake was a manifestation of that lack of self-care. Her family dynamics of course fueled this problem. She was unable to "stand up" to Agnes and allowed herself to be controlled by Richard. By the time all of this began to sink in for her, she had already fatally damaged her body. The medical profession did not understand eating disorders at all back then so Karen was on her own struggling with it's (anorexia's) strangling grasp.
If we had crossed Karen's path (ironically I interviewed for a position at the hospital at which Karen was hospitalized, at the same time she was a patient) we would have been unable to help her. This disease is very complicated and the patient will do anything to keep it hidden. So, despite everyone's concerted and diligent efforts, Karen was determined to continue on in her self destructive behaviors. I may not be 100% accurate in my summation of all this, but I believe that I've described the essence of the situation.
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 29, 2004 23:24:13 GMT -5
The time is 1975. They've been at it for five successful years now, touring and everything else. So, how is the money being handled? Money is the "power source", So, it all comes back to a simple question of money: who controlled it? Carpenters had a financial advisor who took care of all their finances. I believe Karen had control of her money. Richard had control of his money. everything I've ever read about K&R and money is that they were very wise with their money and made excellent investments early on. so if the carpenters were to have stopped making the hits in 1971 they still would have had a small fortune banked up and working for them to sustain them for several years. so I don't necessarily think the question is; who controlled the money. But more so the question should be; who controlled Karen's emotions? We know that Agnes never once complimented Karen on her accomplishments, and continued the pattern impressed upon her ever since childhood. I don't ever remember reading or hearing that Agnes never complimented karen, but more so that she often looked at Richard as being superior over Karen. I agree with you Enigma that Karen was controlled by her family. Considering the heights of fame and wealth that she optained it almost seems odd that she would be so immobilized in standing up to them. Lacking in self confidence she let Richard and their parents run roughshod over her. Later on she started to take some control, but it appears it was too little, too late. Moving into her own condo was a good start, but career problems experienced during the ascendency of disco seemed to have fueled her invertion. As for the Carpenters having career problems in the mid late 70's, I have to disagree on that one. Although in the U.S. their record sales did decline slightly they experienced a new type of success with a string of highly rated television specials. their TV specials were amongst the most popular in the mid-late 70's. Also in U.S. in 1978 they received a GOLD record for their top selling album "Christmas Portrait". In other countries like the UK and Japan their album sales were at an alltime high. Here's a track record of their album chartings in Japan and UK from 1975 to 1978. UK1975 Horizon #1 1976 A Kind Of Hush #3 1976 Ticket To Ride (reissue) #35 1977 Live At The Palladium #28 1977 Passage #12 1978 Singles 1974-1978 #2 JAPAN1975 Live In Japan #8 1975 Horizon #1 1976 A Kind Of Hush #5 1977 Live At The Palladium #24 1977 Passage #7 |
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Mariah Andrews
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I'm 29/Transsexual M2F/Lesbian from Southern NV. Now a first-time author on the market!
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Post by Mariah Andrews on Oct 30, 2004 6:10:04 GMT -5
Big deal.I read that Richard liked to drink beer, and so do I. However, I don't personally like smoking, but I have had one every now and then. I never got addicted to it. I had my first cigarette when I was 8. I drank my first wine when I was 7. I've been a bad kid I'll bet. I admit that occasionally I will smoke pot but that's just about it. I don't like tobacco that much.
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Post by enigma on Oct 30, 2004 7:22:14 GMT -5
OK a few things here first I do not think career or finances had anything to do with Karens situation this was deeply embedded from early childhood. Don't think for a moment Agnes and Richard stood by and let Karen deteriorate Agnes was indeed concerned for Karen as her condition got worse and Richard confronted Karen several times about her condition only to be dismissed and told by Karen she was OK. Some of these confrontations were heated and emotional so her condition was not taken lightly nor were the people around Karen unaware she was in trouble. They did all they could do to get Karen back on track and healthy but it is never that simple and the lack of knowledge on eating disorders did not help things. Karen had to get better herself and she had to take control herself lets not lose sight of that fact. Agnes definately favored Richard over Karen and never accepted Karen as an equal to Richard and Richard himself has said that Karen did not know what was best for her. With this attitude it is clear that Karen would have a huge hill to climb to break away and get personal independance. It is said that Karen often kept her emotions inside and Phil Ramone has said that Karen had trouble expressing anger which again would make it all the more difficult to make a stand. As Rob said when she finally did she was too ravaged by her illness to fully recover. I believe that the solo thing was the straw that broke the camals back and this greatly affected Karens relationship with Richard which led to her confronting and standing up to him more I also feel that because Karen had so much control over her solo effort she gained the confidence to confront those who controlled her. just some more thoughts. |
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Post by Federico on Oct 30, 2004 9:11:17 GMT -5
Rick, I based my statement about Agnes from a statement contained in the article "Karen Carpenter's Second Life". Google it and we'll be on the same page, literally. Reading the comment by Itchy that Karen wasn't comfortable ordering for herself in a restaurant is a personality window in and of itself. ...I work with a young lady who has fought the dragon of anorexia. She is one reason why I came here back in May. She has taught me the psychology behind this disease as well as the physical parameters. As far as the American music scene from 1975-1980 was concerned, we know that it was all about disco. Now, think about comments Richard made about "stealing the Carpenters sound" and "trying to sound like a black chick". Two ends of a bridge, no way to "win". The simple fact was that Karen WAS the voice of the Carpenters, and even if she did nothing but read books to the blind she was the sound. So what was she supposed to do? Clearly, she was being patronized when she was "allowed" to record her album, because her parents and Richard really didn't want her to do it in the first place, and what happened when it was finished? We had a very proud and excited Karen who was disappointed by the response from her support mechanism. This is why, as the article states, Phil couldn't believe the "Auchwitz" Karen that returned from California. So, in a last-gasp effort, she "married" Mr. Burris to try to escape. Whatever happened to him, by the way? Is the sixth space in the new mausoleum his? Hmmm... When my head and heart fight, my stomach is the battleground. I cannot for the life of me imagine doing that to myself for nine years. But in the bigger scheme of things, we have to accept that for whatever larger reason, things happened the way they did, and those who were involved personally must live with their consciences. Dave, this is a very good explanatory writing about Karen's anorexia. Every time I am stressed or worried, I forget to eat or I eat a less amount, and I will add the Richard's adver to Karen before she went to NY: "Karen, just DO me one favor, DON'T DO ANYTHING DISCO". |
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Post by Federico Cruz on Oct 30, 2004 9:12:45 GMT -5
Rick, I based my statement about Agnes from a statement contained in the article "Karen Carpenter's Second Life". Google it and we'll be on the same page, literally. Reading the comment by Itchy that Karen wasn't comfortable ordering for herself in a restaurant is a personality window in and of itself. ...I work with a young lady who has fought the dragon of anorexia. She is one reason why I came here back in May. She has taught me the psychology behind this disease as well as the physical parameters. As far as the American music scene from 1975-1980 was concerned, we know that it was all about disco. Now, think about comments Richard made about "stealing the Carpenters sound" and "trying to sound like a black chick". Two ends of a bridge, no way to "win". The simple fact was that Karen WAS the voice of the Carpenters, and even if she did nothing but read books to the blind she was the sound. So what was she supposed to do? Clearly, she was being patronized when she was "allowed" to record her album, because her parents and Richard really didn't want her to do it in the first place, and what happened when it was finished? We had a very proud and excited Karen who was disappointed by the response from her support mechanism. This is why, as the article states, Phil couldn't believe the "Auchwitz" Karen that returned from California. So, in a last-gasp effort, she "married" Mr. Burris to try to escape. Whatever happened to him, by the way? Is the sixth space in the new mausoleum his? Hmmm... When my head and heart fight, my stomach is the battleground. I cannot for the life of me imagine doing that to myself for nine years. But in the bigger scheme of things, we have to accept that for whatever larger reason, things happened the way they did, and those who were involved personally must live with their consciences. Dave, this is a very good explanatory writing about Karen's anorexia. Every time I am stressed or worried, I forget to eat or I eat a less amount, and I will add the Richard's warning to Karen before she went to NY: "Karen, just DO me one favor, DON'T DO ANYTHING DISCO". |
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Nov 1, 2004 15:44:09 GMT -5
What a post! Whew! Not unlike many of you, I had never ever heard of annorexia before Karen't untimely death - a death that occurred "as a result of" annorexia. All I knew at that time was that our beloved Karen Carpenter was no longer with us - no longer going to be singing her wonderful (though, yes, many times mournful) tunes for us. I'm okay with mournful - I even like mournful - I mean, think of some of those old standard tunes that we called "torch songs." What in the heck is wrong with mournful? NOTHING. Sorry, I digress...... Okay, let's think here (I've just read every post, and there are definitely some "opinions" out there, yes?). Now, I have to agree with Dave that good ole Agnes C. was about as caustic and abbrasive as they come - and old Harold - well, he didn't much want to cross her....so whatever Agnes said in that family went. Richard seemingly never went up against her - I mean - read about his romances - if Karen or Agnes disapproved, he would end his relationship - and the same of course was true about Karen - if Agnes disapproved, or if Richard had something, anything negative to say - well, it eventually got squelched. Karen didn't stand an emotional chance in that family. I don't think money had anything to do with the problem of Karen's annorexia. Cherry Boone-O'Niel also had annorexia - and her dad had plenty of money, (Pat Boone) and she wasn't hurting financially. She spoke one evening after Karen's death, and mentioned KC specifically. Cherry's annorexia, like Karens, was brought about ONLY BECAUSE OF A LACK OF CONTROL issue that each of them had. Someone else had control of everything else in their lives - except eating. Cherry could control her own eating habits, as could Karen; and one would be d**ned to try and stop that from happening. Do I think that Richard knew and didn't care? No - not really. Do I think Richard was obsessed about fame? Yes. Was it all for Karen? NO!!! It was for Richard, and yes, for Karen as well. But apparently, at least at that time, Richard HAD to have Karen to have FAME. Ah yes, the ole 1+1 syndrome. Richard could not have what he wanted WITHOUT Karen. Again, as I said, at that time, anyway. Did that make him a bad person? NO Now Agnes, on the other hand, I can't get my arms around her attitude. From everything I have read - seen, etc., it was Richard who was the musician, and Karen was, no matter what, the tag-along little sister. Agnes and Harold moved from their first home BECAUSE THEY WANTED RICHARD TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE SOMETHING OF HIS MUSIC. From Agnes' point of view, it was quite apparent that Richard was the sibling with the talent. Karen, as it happened, could sing. And she weren't no slouch on the drums, either. Richard was the genius, and especially in Agnes' eyes. And, even though that may be true, would it have hurt Agnes to at least NOTICE that what Karen was doing was mind boggling. Was it that difficult for Agnes to say - Karen, you've got the most beautiful voice I have ever, ever heard? Karen - do you realize that you make up 1/2 of this new "team" and wow - you're doing well. I remember reading the article about when KC purchased her new condo in Century City - it was all over People magazine - I believe the headlines were something like "Karen Carpenter tries desperately to show the world (and the men in it) that she's not the goody-two shoes everyone thinks she is" and has purchased this megga-expensive condo.....Now I ask you - does purchasing an expensive condo in Century City make one less of a goody two shoes, or am I just missing something here? It makes one realize the wealth that was attached to that individual, but how on earth could it have possibly meant anything other than that. Aside from having a "place to hideaway" - she still sang what Richard wanted her to, the way he wanted her to sing it, when he wanted her to sing it, and in the key he wanted her to sing it in. That, my friends, is nothing but control. I could really type all day on this topic, but will end this little epistle by commenting on the solo effort. Had it not been for Phil and Itchy, Karen Carpenter could have easily died a year or so sooner than she did, I feel quite sure. Itchy and Phil took such good care of Karen and loved her so much - and consequently, our KC trusted them. That was an important step in her life. A very important step. It just came a fraction too late in time. I admire Phil and Itchy for their love and commitment to Karen. I admire Karen for doing such a gutsy thing as actually going the distance and making the solo effort that got rejected. Think about it - what was it that would be the most rebellious thing Karen could have done to any one member of her family?  ? Why, do something musically on her own, of course. I was so angry with Richard for so long because he refused to release the solo CD, but now can begin to appreciate his point of view - why would he want to release it? It must have been difficult , and I'm sure he'd really talked himself into believing for a time that perhaps Karen didn't really want it published, after all. Only in time will we all know that answer. At any rate, this is a great post, and it truly gets one to think. I don't think anyone - ANYONE purposely abused Karen, though she WAS abused horribly. I'm sure Richard never equated his verbal abuse with Karen's physical problems. I just think he really loved her too much. But, like Dave said - what's done is done, and what needs to happen is those of us who loved Karen - we know we loved her, and we can shout to new people from the mountintops how wonderful she was. And, with today's technology, it's not difficult for any young man or woman to decide for themselves, (and many feel they can, readily), how they feel about Karen's wonderful sound - her voice - her styling - her phrasing - her smile - her self immage, etc. Of course the solemn truth in all of this rhetoric is that Karen A. Carpenter is no longer with us, in body. If those of us in this forum feel that poignently about it, can we really know/imagine how Richard - knowing all he now knows - must feel? Bravo to Karen for making her voice heard through this CD, and in more ways than one! Tim/ YOM |
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just as long as its not my lungs- they are a mess without smoking - I just let Richard be Richard and stick with the wonderful music 
Whatever they did in their private lives does not change my opinion of them and their talent 
I just Love them for who they are 
