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Post by Jim on Jul 13, 2004 19:52:54 GMT -5
Great board! I love to read different opinions on the Carpenters. I've been a huge fan since I first saw them on Thanksgiving night in 1973 and I later saw them again in 1975. Karen was the best singer ever...period!
I wanted to get some different opinions concerning Richard's use of the O K Chorale in many of their later albums. In my opinion, he overdid it. It sounded TOO plush and overdone. The Carpenters were at their best when it was just them doing the vocals and overdubbing. Any thoughts...?
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Post by Rob813 on Jul 13, 2004 22:12:36 GMT -5
I think Richard was in a bind. After Karen died, he did not have her to complete the background vocals. He has always had a love of choral music. I think it was just easier to use the OK Choral than any individual singers. Of course unless it comes directly from him, we really don't know his reasoning. Actually, I like the choir sound on "Look To Your Dreams". But, I can understand other people's objection to it's use on other cuts.
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Post by Moe on Jul 15, 2004 0:07:33 GMT -5
 I totally agree that Richard over used the choir on all the post Karen releases. As stated, in some cases like "Look to your dreams," the choir sounds great, but all in all, I think it hurt the sound of the songs. I wished Richard would have used "pop" studio musicians. On songs like "Two lives" from VOTH, the choir really brings the song down and it could be such a great pop sounding song. Christmas music and a handful of others like "Because we are in love," is the only place that the choir seems to fit. I will listen and buy anything with Karen's voice recorded on it, but it irritates me a little to know that the later recordings could be even better with different background vocals. my opinion...
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ThomB
CERTIFIED GOLD MEMBER
Posts: 110
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Post by ThomB on Jul 15, 2004 19:35:48 GMT -5
I have an immense amount of respect for Richard and I think he is very talented. But I agree with the majority here. some songs are okay with the OK Choral, but others like "Two Lives" should have had backup singers or even just Karen's voice only. To give it a more contemporary sound. It would be interesting to hear some of these songs remixed without the OK Choral.  |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jul 15, 2004 21:34:17 GMT -5
I have an immense amount of respect for Richard and I think he is very talented. But I agree with the majority here. some songs are okay with the OK Choral, but others like "Two Lives" should have had backup singers or even just Karen's voice only. To give it a more contemporary sound. It would be interesting to hear some of these songs remixed without the OK Choral.  Well said Thom. I also have a great respect for Richard and his work has been impeccable, but the use of the OK Choral on certain songs was definitely overkill.  |
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Post by Rob813 on Jul 15, 2004 22:57:20 GMT -5
You it's funny, Richard has always "tinkered" with their songs, adding touches to make it just right. In our minds we are taking some of that away and trying to imagine less instead of more. I don't know how some of the songs would have sounded with just Karen's vocals but I'm sure the songs could have stood on their own produced that way. I have trouble imaging them other than they are, but am intrigued by your suggestions.
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Post by cam83 on Jul 16, 2004 0:48:38 GMT -5
Hi Guys,
On the other hand, the CARPENTERS sound was the famed overdubbed, choir sound. So I can see why Richard used it. It was a MAIN ingrediant of the CARPENTERS sound then. Plus, he just lost his sister and was doing the best that he could, at that time, alone in the recording studio. Personally, I have never minded the use of the OK Chorale. I always thought it enhanced their songs. I mean you focused on Karen's vocals, and the choir background was a nice touch, especially since they came from CHOIR backgrounds at Long Beach.
My thoughts,
Cameron
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Post by Boat2Sail on Jul 16, 2004 10:49:46 GMT -5
 I read every post in this thread and then read Cam's post and wow I don't know what to think, because Cam really made some strong points there. Richard really was trying his best and the OK Chorale isn't all too bad. I'm kind of caught between. I'm inclined to think that some songs would be better with backup singers, but well this is the way it happened, and as it is I like the way the songs are.
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Post by JIM on Jul 16, 2004 20:42:08 GMT -5
I admire Richards as a musician
and I think he liked to expirement
with lots of unique types of music
and arrangements. I feel bad when
I find myself critisizing the O.K.
Chorale because so much of his work
was critisized by the public. How
can I even begin to feel qualified
to judge the integrity of someone
I regard as a genius. Yet I find
the Chorale really out of place
in many of the songs from VOTH but
given the great deal of greif he
must have felt when those tracks
were completed, maybe the chorale
sound was an expression of respect
in the same way they were used on
many Christmas recordings to convey
respect to the day Christ was born.
Richard does seem to do a lot of
remixing of there work, sometimes
for the better and sometimes not.
All a matter of individual taste
but I can't think of one song where
the O.K. Chorale has been taken out
from any of the completed VOTH
tracks, which leads me to beleive
it was a choice that came from the
heart reflecting his respects and
emotions over the loss of Karen.
JIM
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Post by enigma on Jul 17, 2004 22:45:36 GMT -5
I have to agree Richard's use of the OK Chorale was overkill. I never liked it when Richard overdid it on the production of some Carpenters songs even when Karen was still alive and the ones released after her death were even worse. He should have toned down on the overdubs and choirs and showcased Karens voice more. Less was definately better in these cases.
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Post by OceanKing on Jul 18, 2004 11:24:08 GMT -5
"I Need to Be in Love" was the first song in which the OK Chorale was heard. And perhaps that is why the song was a chart disappointment (only reaching #25). You would think Richard would have gotten the message, but.... The problem with the OKC is that they sound like they've been imported from a 1940s musical. That's fine when that's the sound you're TRYING for, like on the Christmas albums, but they sound very out of place on 1970s and 1980s pop tunes. The only songs they work well on are "Look to Your Dreams," "Now" and "Rainbow Connection." It's understandable that Richard was in a bind after Karen's death on how to complete the unreleased tracks, but he would have been wiser to find some talented studio backup singers. (Every record company has some on call.) He and Karen had already used the "Carpettes" on some recordings ("All You Get from Love..."). At least they sounded contemporary. Richard could have done the back-up vocals himself on a lot of these songs (as he did on "Prime Time Love"), and used studio singers to record Karen's parts in the harmonies. This technique worked VERY well with Siedah Garrett on "Kiss Me the Way You Did Last Night." Heck, I wish that he and Siedah would re-do ALL of the OKC's harmonies. I don't mean to complain, because, like the rest of you, I admire Richard's talent and I love the music that he and Karen gave to the world. But when I listen to some of these songs, the OKC just drags them down, and I wish that Richard had made different choices. |
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Post by JIM on Jul 18, 2004 12:46:36 GMT -5
Ocean King you make a great point.
In an earlier post I must have
been in a cathartic state of mind.
I would love to hear the VOTH mixes
with Siedah Garrett or Carolyn Dennis on backing vocals. Along
with Richards Harmonies VOTH
would improve dramatically. I hope
he considers a remix on future
compilatons or As part of a new
album containing Karens unreleased
solo work. ATGB was great but from
hearing the some of the unreleased
gems still out there I'm convinced
a great album studio album could
be produced.
JIM
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Mar 20, 2007 21:58:31 GMT -5
"I Need to Be in Love" was the first song in which the OK Chorale was heard. And perhaps that is why the song was a chart disappointment (only reaching #25). You would think Richard would have gotten the message, but.... The problem with the OKC is that they sound like they've been imported from a 1940s musical. That's fine when that's the sound you're TRYING for, like on the Christmas albums, but they sound very out of place on 1970s and 1980s pop tunes. The only songs they work well on are "Look to Your Dreams," "Now" and "Rainbow Connection." It's understandable that Richard was in a bind after Karen's death on how to complete the unreleased tracks, but he would have been wiser to find some talented studio backup singers. (Every record company has some on call.) He and Karen had already used the "Carpettes" on some recordings ("All You Get from Love..."). At least they sounded contemporary. Richard could have done the back-up vocals himself on a lot of these songs (as he did on "Prime Time Love"), and used studio singers to record Karen's parts in the harmonies. This technique worked VERY well with Siedah Garrett on "Kiss Me the Way You Did Last Night." Heck, I wish that he and Siedah would re-do ALL of the OKC's harmonies. I don't mean to complain, because, like the rest of you, I admire Richard's talent and I love the music that he and Karen gave to the world. But when I listen to some of these songs, the OKC just drags them down, and I wish that Richard had made different choices. Here is an old post, revised. As you can see, it was started originally in July of 2004. I like the fact that Jim Hutchinson participated in this discussion - however, it's Ocean Kings post that I think really strikes a chord for me here. I must agree that, although a Carpenters fan to the core, I could have done completely without the OKC. I didn't think they fared too badly on the Christmas Albums - I mean - Christmas and Choirs go together like a hand and glove. But to use a choir for pop tunes that sounded like they came from a 1940's musical, as Ocen King put it...I find that was unnecessary. They sounded too structured - that's the part that would get me - like a stodgy, but wonderfully professional adult choir, but does a pop song and a high-brow choir go together?  .... As I go back and reread Ocean King's post, he says the same thing about the Christmas albums too. How funny.   At any rate, Richard DID use the OKC even before Karen died - and WHY? I can't think of a Carpenters tune that really NEEDED that flambouyant of a choir sound, in my opinion. Too much - way to high-brow sounding for my taste. I wonder if we ask Richard now, if he might regret using them on some of the songs he did - and as Jim suggested, perhaps he'd consider remixing some of these without the OKC. Should I ask? Your thoughts on this old subject turned new again? Tim |
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Post by wisejester7 on Mar 21, 2007 6:45:54 GMT -5
Tim wrote: "At any rate, Richard DID use the OKC even before Karen died - and WHY? I can't think of a Carpenters tune that really NEEDED that flambouyant of a choir sound, in my opinion. Too much - way to high-brow sounding for my taste. I wonder if we ask Richard now, if he might regret using them on some of the songs he did - and as Jim suggested, perhaps he'd consider remixing some of these without the OKC. Should I ask? Your thoughts on this old subject turned new again?" ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D We know the Carpenters liked to experiment with music and sound. We know both Karen and Richard were driven to the point of exhaustion. Their work schedule to rest time ratio was terribly skewed against them personally. We know (now) that Karen and Richard were both ill (in their own ways). All of these factors must have played heavily in the use of the OKC. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Personally, I loved their multi-layered vocals ... when all the voices were Karen and Richard. This is really time consuming, though. I don't think either one was really up to the work that goes into making the "Carpenters Sound". Richard had managed to straighten himself out and Karen was beginning to get a handle on her illness. I think, in time, they might have returned to their roots and produced their "Sound" again. Karen ran out of time.   |
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Post by GoodOldDreams on Mar 21, 2007 19:31:05 GMT -5
The name "O.K. Chorale" is a somewhat clever double-meaning play on the phrase "Gunfight at the O.K. Corral", but it has limited appeal to me in the context of Carpenters' music. As many of you have expressed previously, while the group was employed effectively to help bring about an old-fashioned ambience on the Carpenters' "Christmas Portrait" album and the period-movie-sounding themes like "Look to Your Dreams" and "Because We are in Love," the group has been used to detrimental effect on other songs. It was totally superfluous to have them on the remake of "Make Believe It's Your First Time" on the "Voice of the Heart" album when Karen's original solo version of the song was so much better. The O.K. Chorale was used extensively in an effort to liven up the instrumental renditions on "Richard Carpenter: PIANIST-ARRANGER-COMPOSER-CONDUCTOR", but the result sounded too much like "elevator music" to me. In a way I would rather listen to Richard's original arrangements without Karen's lead vocals than have them diluted in such a manner! Unfortunately, new doesn't necessarily mean improved, or even "O.K." Just my thoughts...
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Post by Rick Henry on Mar 25, 2007 11:40:25 GMT -5
I agree with all about the OK Chorale. I really felt that it made some of the Carpenters songs sound a bit too mushy - and I think part of the reason why I do not care for the songs "Because We Are In Love" and "Look To Your Dreams" is because of the OK Chorale.
The song "Now" I feel would have been much better had it not included the OK Chorale. It should have been left as is with Karen's lead vocal - or maybe Richard could have taken parts of Karen's recorded vocal and dubbed that to create a nice vocal effect - but the choir I feel gave this lovely ballad a bit of mush.
As I recall, though, the OK Chorale was used to great effect on a few songs on "Passage" - but I believe this was in conjunction with Peter Knight's outstanding orchestrations.
I agree that OK Chorale was perfect for "Christmas Portrait".
*** A note on "Look To Your Dreams" - although overall this is not a favorite song - I do love the lyric. |
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I read every post in this thread and then read Cam's post and wow I don't know what to think, because Cam really made some strong points there. Richard really was trying his best and the OK Chorale isn't all too bad. I'm kind of caught between. I'm inclined to think that some songs would be better with backup singers, but well this is the way it happened, and as it is I like the way the songs are. 
