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Post by Will on Jun 25, 2004 20:37:59 GMT -5
I was listening to a radio show the other morning that often discusses music (generally music going back to the 80s), and one of the commentators made a brief but clearly negative remark about the Carpenters.
Why is this so?
I was listening to some of their work today and it is clear they produced, played, and sung beautiful harmonic music and lyrics.
The more I listen to the C's, the more I feel they absolutely loved music and weren't afraid to produce the kind of music they desired. At the same time, I suppose, they were also concerned what others thought.
Any thoughts?
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Post by Song4You on Jun 25, 2004 21:12:39 GMT -5
That's a very good question, Will. Sometimes I think the same thing. I guess some people just don't like the kind of music that Karen and Richard were making...maybe it was too "easy" on their ears. I think that most of the people who dislike the Carpenters are people who listen to the heavy metal rock and they just don't enjoy anything beyond that realm of music.
But, we can't jump to conclusions...I think the best way to answer this question is to physically sit down with a person who dislikes the Carpenters and ask them exactly why they dislike the C's. I think that'll get the best answer to this question...
Laura
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Post by Rob813 on Jun 25, 2004 22:07:19 GMT -5
I think that A&M records (they're recording studio) was partly to blame for the bad rap the Carpenters received. Although Karen and Richard were the best selling recording artists that A&M records ever had, they seemed ashamed of them. I believe this was demonstrated by the weak choice of album covers that Richard fought unsuccessfully for years. Also, promotion for their albums was weak. Despite the lack of interest on the part of the studio, Karen and Richard were the 5th top selling artists of the entire 1970's. If it weren't for Carpenters, A&M could not have survived in the competitive world of music.
The Carpenter image as corny and white bread obstructed people from really listening to the music. It just wasn't "cool" for the hip rockers to say anything nice about the duo. They fought this right until Karen's death. I believe this pressure contributed to the problems that Karen fought so valiantly right until the very end.
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Post by cam83 on Jun 25, 2004 22:45:40 GMT -5
Hello, Well all of my friends know that I am a die hard CARPENTERS fan. They know I know pretty much every song, song peak, whether it went gold or platinum in what country etc. So they know that they will get facts on the Carpenters and Karen Carpenter. I am like that character on the movie the BROKEN HEARTS CLUB in that I adore and love Karen and like people to share my appreciation for their music. I actually had one friend of mine who loved rock and punk music...and he disliked the Carpenters until I played him stuff...and Karen's drum solo and he was blown away at how great she was. And especially her solo album because she kinda rocks on some tunes there. He went on to tell me, that she was a great singer...and coming from him, that is something wonderful. He doesn't throw his compliments around like that.
I think people just don't really listen to them...like really LISTEN to it. I mean, they covered all genre of music, big band, 50's, 60's, country, broadway type stuff(I could have danced all night), disco(Boogie Nights), sacred christian music (Christ is born, Ave Maria), pyschadelic type tunes(Another Song) and of course lamenting tunes(Crescent Noon, Eve, A Place To Hideaway) and of course harder edged songs(Road Ode, Goodbye to Love, ) and so on...and yet, everything they did was marvelous. They were def understated as musical artists and geniuses. What a gift she had though...man!
Cameron
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Post by Will on Jun 25, 2004 22:53:39 GMT -5
It's interesting to think of the courage required to be young and produce the kinds of music you enjoy even though it is going against the trends of the time.
If the C's had done some of their work 10 years earlier they would have been inovative but accepted. In that universe, as rock arrived and evolved, the Carpenters would have been considered old fashion.
But by going retro (in some ways) at the end of the 60s and 70s, they were showing that beautiful music is beautiful no matter when it arrives.
Beautiful music doesn't evolve over the years into a better form.
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Post by Will on Jun 25, 2004 23:02:19 GMT -5
Hello, Well all of my friends know that I am a die hard CARPENTERS fan. They know I know pretty much every song, song peak, whether it went gold or platinum in what country etc. So they know that they will get facts on the Carpenters and Karen Carpenter. I am like that character on the movie the BROKEN HEARTS CLUB in that I adore and love Karen and like people to share my appreciation for their music. I actually had one friend of mine who loved rock and punk music...and he disliked the Carpenters until I played him stuff...and Karen's drum solo and he was blown away at how great she was. And especially her solo album because she kinda rocks on some tunes there. He went on to tell me, that she was a great singer...and coming from him, that is something wonderful. He doesn't throw his compliments around like that. I think people just don't really listen to them...like really LISTEN to it. I mean, they covered all genre of music, big band, 50's, 60's, country, broadway type stuff(I could have danced all night), disco(Boogie Nights), sacred christian music (Christ is born, Ave Maria), pyschadelic type tunes(Another Song) and of course lamenting tunes(Crescent Noon, Eve, A Place To Hideaway) and of course harder edged songs(Road Ode, Goodbye to Love, ) and so on...and yet, everything they did was marvelous. They were def understated as musical artists and geniuses. What a gift she had though...man! Cameron Good points Cameron, and the idea that their love for and ability to produce beautiful music from whatever genre or period was so great that they didn't follow the normal path. The normal path is to find a sound and an image and build it into a financial success. In fact, this normal path may be what got in the way of Karen's solo career in the late 70's. I know you are a Carpenter's fan of the first order and have probably known and felt these thoughts for many years, but it's just now occurring to me.
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Post by Will on Jun 25, 2004 23:33:45 GMT -5
Laura and Rob,
Thanks for your interesting thoughts and comments.
I did force my sister to sit down one time and listen to the Carpenters' performance of 'I Can Dream Can't I' and she had to admit that she liked it.
I think her exposure to the C's like most people is pretty limited.
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Post by Moe on Jun 26, 2004 3:54:40 GMT -5
I think there are just some people out there who just don't like their kind of music. It is too easy or lush or boring. They prefer guitars and drums in the fore front instead of a voice. Some don't like love songs. There is no accounting for people's taste...especially when they are wrong! I saw something on CMT about Brooks & Dunn becoming the 3rd or 4th biggest selling duo of all time. They listed those who had sold more albums/CD's and when they mentioned the Carpenters, there was a gagging reference. I think this is an attempt to sound "in the know." Part of a group above the rest of us....the elite! whatever! The Carpenters, like them or not, put out great material that has stood the test of time. Anyone should be able to recognize great music, even if its not in your style. The Carpenters are class acts that made classic music.
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Post by beaner on Jun 26, 2004 4:18:05 GMT -5
Like you Rob, I think that those not interested in the Carpenters was because of their so called goody two shoe image. They were basically good natured people and didn't get into too much trouble like so many rock stars. It's too bad cause they missed out on some great music.
Have a great day! For those that like Melissa Etheridge music also, I'm off to a concert in New Hampshire. Should be fun!
Take care,
Beaner
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Post by enigma on Jun 26, 2004 8:08:15 GMT -5
Good topic here are my thoughts I grew up in the generation when the Carpenters were making records and it was not cool to like them. Its true their sound is soft for the most part, Thier sound is polished and perfected and thier music is principally love songs and ballads. This is in direct contrast to rock and roll which is rebelious by nature has something to say (a message) for the most part and is raw and edgy. I LOVE ROCK AND ROLL MUSIC so for the longest time I kept away from the Carpenters I dismissed them as sacarine, whiter than white, syropy pop (I did always listen to thier now and then record because it was the only Carp record in the house and I was too young to make the connection between album and artist). Then I got more interested in music and read up on the chart sucess of this duo and thought how bad can they be if they were this sucessful so I got their greatest hits record, listened to the songs and one by one I fell in love with them then progressed to the full albums and became a fan especially of Karens. The more I listened to Karens voice, heard her drum, saw her in the specials and videos, the more I loved and respected Karen. My first love is the Beatles and the Carpenters will never overtake them as my number 1 group but they will always be in the top 5. I listened to bands like Led Zepplin, The Eagles, Aerosmith, Kiss...Hard rock in general and the Carpenters won me over in a relatively short time mainly due to Karens beautiful voice so they really are not as bad as people think they are. People who hate the Carpenters either don't know the Carpenters or are lying to be "cool" and secretly like the Carpenters I mean really, how can you hate that voice its pure heaven.
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 26, 2004 19:34:47 GMT -5
My take on why some people don't like the Carpenters:
Not everybody can like the same thing. such as not everybody likes chocolate ice cream or not everybody likes driving the same type of car. The same is true with music, not everybody cares to listen to the types of music or groups. But in the case of the Carpenters I think they really do receive more than their share of put-downs, which really are not deserved. it would be one thing if their music was just mediocre. But K&R's music really is quality.
I think part of the reason they get this is because of the way they were marketed in the 70's. Too many of the publicity pictures and album covers really made them look all too square and sticky sweet. I mean look at the "Made In America" cover (yes, I know many Carpenters fans love this cover, and I think it's well done myself), but really someone who is a fan of Led Zeppelin looking at "Made In America" - it's almost embarrassing.
On the other hand the Carpenters are extremely popular and are loved by people who like all types of music. they are one of the few exceptions. There are many people out there who like hard rock, classic rock, hip-hop, even rap who just love the Carpenters. But these same people would never be caught buying a Barry Manilow or Olivia Newton-John album. I myself prefer male fronted classic rock or alt-rock artists like the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Jimi Hendrix, Coldplay, the Srokes, Jason Mraz, Poor Old Lu, Massivivid, etc. But above them all are the Carpenters - K&R are my favorites.
About 12 years ago I saw a television commercial for KOST (a popular adult contemporary radio station), Dick Clark was the representative speaking for the station and he came on saying some like, "Not the same old boring music. You won't hear Carpenters or Barry Manilow...". I was offended when I heard this, I felt it was so wrong for someone like Dick Clark to be putting down the Carpenters. I believe someone complained because that commercial was never aired again.
But as time goes by I think more and more people are realizing that the Carpenters' music does have substance and the musicianship is very solid along with that angelic one of a kind voice; KAREN CARPENTER. Maybe in another 20 years people will forget about the sticky sweet image A&M carved for them and recognize them for the quality music they have made. And another thing; isn't it time the Carpenters were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I mean this year they inducted the Dells, gee who even remembers the Dells. I mean they only had two top ten hits in the late 60's, one gold single in the early 70's. they made the top 40 with only one album. None of their albums were certified gold. they certainly were not a world wide phenomenon - yet they were inducted into the R&R Hall of Fame... hmmm?
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Post by BethMosior on Jun 26, 2004 20:36:16 GMT -5
I agree with you Rick my thoughts keep going back to other great musicians, composers,like the Beatles I heard some people say they would never make it before they came to the US, and they found it hard to get just one of their 78's, or J.S. Bach his music and cantatas,would have been lost to the world if not for his son I think. both can and do go into all sorts of music The Carpenters are in this class, they are for all seasons and all time I think those that are only interested in fads are jealous and instead of just enjoying the stuff they like they have to destroy anything that shows that they don't need fads to be a sucsess, to just be ones self.
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Post by Ming on Jun 26, 2004 20:39:48 GMT -5
Everyone have different favourites. We love the Carpenters. But we also have different songs which are our favourite Carpenters' songs. I can understand that some people just don't like them.
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Post by BethMosior on Jun 26, 2004 21:03:11 GMT -5
I agree MIng, I think alot of my thoughts keep going back to the way some people treated me because I love the Carpenters,very few ever said anything nice, they just cut them down ( and me also ) only because they where not " IN " its one thing to just not like some kinds of music and its another thing to try and destoy, humiliate,drag in the mud, just absolute hatred for them as people and not just hating their music. some of the things I have heard from those people, I just don't understand why they want to destoy the Carpenters, I just don't get that, nor ever will
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Post by enigma on Jun 27, 2004 7:46:33 GMT -5
Just a comment on Ricks Rock and Roll Hall of Fame comment. I love the Carpenters but the Carpenters were not pioneers of music, they never made a definitive album that stood head and shoulders above all their peers, their music never made any real statement and above all the are not considered Rock and Roll. They had a quality sound and a one of a kind angelic voice. The rock and roll hall of fame is not based on popularity otherwise we will see New Kids On The Block and Nsync in there one day its about more than that. If I were going on personal feelings here I would love to see the Carpenters in the R&R HOF but objectively speaking in the big picture in the history of R&R they did not do enough, compared to some of their peers at the time, to get in the HOF As John Denver once said "The Carpenters will never get into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame but neither will I"
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 27, 2004 13:00:07 GMT -5
Just a comment on Ricks Rock and Roll Hall of Fame comment. I love the Carpenters but the Carpenters were not pioneers of music, they never made a definitive album that stood head and shoulders above all their peers, their music never made any real statement and above all the are not considered Rock and Roll. They had a quality sound and a one of a kind angelic voice. The rock and roll hall of fame is not based on popularity otherwise we will see New Kids On The Block and Nsync in there one day its about more than that. If I were going on personal feelings here I would love to see the Carpenters in the R&R HOF but objectively speaking in the big picture in the history of R&R they did not do enough, compared to some of their peers at the time, to get in the HOF As John Denver once said "The Carpenters will never get into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame but neither will I" On the other hand Enigma there are quite a few artists in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame who really didn't make a major statement with their music or had an album that stood head and shoulders above the rest. There are also several in the R&RHOF that are not necessarily R&R for example Mahalia Jackson - she certainly is not rock and roll. Others like Louis Armstrong, Wilson Pickett, Drifters, 4 Seasons, Everly Brothers, Aretha Franklin, Al Green, Platters, BeeGees - these artists are either pop, R&B or easy listening not rock and roll. Dion and Bobby Darin neither of them had an album or song that really stood head and shoulders above the rest or really even pioneers of any kind. I think eventually K&R will be there. They certainly have had a great influence on a lot of musicians and Karen was a pioneer in her own right in being a female drummer who sang and played at the same time. For sheer quality of music alone the C's do deserve to be honored.
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Post by BethMosior on Jun 27, 2004 13:15:27 GMT -5
Amen, Amen, and AAAAAmen to what you said Rick Thanx every so much and I give a whole hearted agreement to all that you just said thanx
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Dave
Ultra Emissary
"sleeping in the arms of the cosmos..."
Posts: 1,515
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Post by Dave on Jun 27, 2004 13:59:52 GMT -5
Why do the Carpenters belong in the Hall of Fame? Allow me to use a baseball comparison. Bill Mazeroski, former second baseman for the Pirates, never put up the kind of numbers that would have allowed him to be a shoo-in at Cooperstown. Rather, it was the special something he contributed to the game of baseball that led to his eventual enshrinement. Using the same comparison, and looking at the times, it seems to me that Karen & Richard contributed something very special to the game...the game of music.
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