Hi all - again

[JOEYD]

Joey here.

Some of your names look familiar. Maybe I've met some of you on other forums in the past. I've been away from the Carpenters for a while. But Karen is still my favorite female singer, along with Ella Fitzgerald.

As for Richard, I think since he was the engine behind the Carpenters, he's also the reason for their bad image. But I suppose he wasn't all bad because he helped produce some of my favorite music, especially the Christmas albums.

But take Karen's voice away and Richard's talents are those of just another good muscian. Karen was exceptional, Richard is just good. Ever think why he wasn't successful producing any other singers?

Give me Karen and a piano, like the solo Make Believe It's Your First Time or Sometimes. Please don't give me Druscilla Penny or any other of Richard's attempts at singing - or any song with a syrupy choir. Ouch, my teeth!

Just my thoughts. Thanks.

Joey

[Moe]

I do disagree with you about Richard. I think Richard could have been a very sucessful producer for other singers or picked another wonderful singer to team up with to produce "the sound." I also think he would have been wonderful at scoring films. He doesn't have the magical voice that Karen did, but his writing, arranging, producing, and song choices are impeccable.

Richard doesn't want to team with anyone again because, as he has stated, "when you've worked with the best..." I don't know why he doesn't work as a producer or arranger (like Phil Ramone), but he is married with several kids. I have only one child, but if I had the money, I wouldn't work either. I am much happier away from work than while I am at work. I look at it as his choice with how he spends his time, not that he can't find work elsewhere.

I do think that part of Karen's magic comes from Richard's skills. I am not a big fan of Karen's solo work, though it isn't bad. I don't think it is as good as their work together. I think they made a good team, working together.

I do think Richard did made mistakes, though. (who doesn't?) His singing isn't too hot, and I totally agree with you on the backup choir for the post-Karen songs. I would prefer some studio singers over the choir any day, except for "I need to be in love" and the Christmas music.

anyway, there are my thoughts on the subject...

[Rick Henry]

I agree and disagree with what Joey had to say. I feel both Karen and Richard are immensely talented. I'm not a big fan of Richard's voice, but he did assemble some of the finest music in the history of music. And although I feel K&R may be equally talented, I feel Karen had that something extra. Her voice was unique, it was a one of a kind. She had a very lovable and magnetic personality and look.
I feel that with or without Richard, Karen would have been a huge success regardless. Richard on the other without the voice may not have not been quite the sucess.

[steve]

I think that both Karen and Richard were equally important to the sound we know as "The Carpenters"..Karens "voice" is truly one of a kind, but without the music and arrangements to bring out her talent,then it just wouldnt have been so special..I kind of look at karen as the showpiece of the Carpenters and Richard as the mind!! The mind is always important but is never the one who will get as much recognition..As a sidenote,I feel it is so important in the music biz,to get the proper backing for your music and often wonder if the Carpenters would have even made it in todays music world..Their style is really no longer what is considered marketable..Karens voice with innocence and purity is no longer what is selling records,and if she came up now, she may very well have had to change her style to become more marketable..I am glad they came up at the time they did!!! Steve

[Rick Henry]

Back to put in more of my two cents here...

You made some interesting points here Steve, but I don't totally agree. If the C's came out today maybe the music might have to be a bit different. They may be doing more upbeat power pop tunes with a dance type rhythm to it, but as for Karen's voice that would not change. She has a classic voice which is always in style. There are several in todays market who sell extremely well who sing in those pure tones like Sade, Diana Krall, and the top seller of today - Norah Jones.

Considering the lack of promotion even in today's market the Carpenters still sell very well. They manage to sell a few million units every year. That is excellent for a group who hasn't been active in over 20 years. There is no doubt in my mind that Karen's voice just as it was would be a huge hit today and in any generation.

[enigma]

Joey I have to agree with you on this one to a degree. The Carpenters were both Karen and Richard and perhaps more Richard as he seemed to do everything but sing on Karens songs (produce, arrange, choose the songs etc.) But in my mind there is little doubt that he needed Karens voice and style to bring the meaning and emotion to his songs that only Karen could do. I also agree with Joey on Richard being responsible not so much for the image but for the sound of the Carpenters good or bad he was the producer after all. Karen proved on her solo record that she did not need Richard and perhaps he did not need her (I don't agree) but they made a great team and when you combined the two talents something magical happened. Personally it is Karen and only Karen that keeps me listening to the Carpenters. I don't like the syropy saccarine sound that Richard produces or the often overblown productions he puts in the songs but that beautiful angelic voice keeps me listening and when Richard tones down the production thats when the magic happens for me. Sorry to all the Richard fans but I would not touch a Carpenters album if Karen were not singing on most of the tracks and I'm glad Richard felt the same way.

[enigma]

I don't usually double post but I read the reply's and thought I say a few words on the "if the Carpenters had come out today" topic. They may not have been the phenomena they were in the early to mid 70's but that voice would definately sell. They may have to change their style but they would do what it took to sucessfully integrate todays musical sound with Karens voice and still produce magic. Or as Rick said they could stay within thier style and still sell records. Their back cataloge does still sell as Rick said and Richard is always sucessful with the new compilations and albums of unreleased material (they do chart albeit not on the top 40 but still on the charts)

[steve]

Interesting discussion !!! I do know that the Carpenters had the talent to make it in any generation musically,but I wonder if they would have sounded the same if they came up in todays music business??I listen to mostly older music now a days(Carpenters,Carly Simon,CSN&Y etc..)because it is the style of music that I like the best,but this is not the style that is the most marketable today..Yes these older artists still sell,but I think they are selling to an older more mature audience for the most part,and it is the younger generation that really fuel record(CD) sales..Look at the top artists in todays music world,they are mostly youth oriented....I have been through this with my daughter who is a singer and is quite young..The music she has recorded does appeal to older people, and she has been heard by a few really big people in the music biz and the responce has usually been "Great voice,but wrong style"..Also my experience with radio promo has been a similar one, where the really big stations that are controlled by the industry, play music that fits a format very neatly..I have read the radio tracking reports for my daughters music and I got sick and tired of seeing "Style" as the reason for not adding her single to the playlist...Now there are exceptions to every rule and a "Nora Jones" comes along and breaks all of the rules,but this is usually accomplished by a very massive marketing campaign designed to educate people to something they may not be used to hearing on mainstream radio..I cant help but think that if the Carpenters came up today they would have been packaged differently and wouldnt have had the really great classy sound that we all love so much..Also alot of the biz today is "Image" and I dont know if their "image" would have worked today??Would Karen have been an american Idol finalist?? I dont think so,she was really too good for that,but this is what sells today..Innocence,angelic,pure and beautiful seem to be out and Power,R&B oriented,and angry seem to be in??? Just more fuel to the conversation!!!! Love this site! Steve

[Rick Henry]

I totally get what you're saying Steve. If K&R were youths today I think Richard would have most likely come up with something that would be marketable. As for their image not everything out there that is selling big is marketed as mean or sleazy. A few examples Hilary Duff, Josh Groban, Jason Mraz, Alicia Keys, Coldplay. As you said Norah Jones is the exception. I think if K&R were new today they would be that "exception". Karen Carpenter's voice is too good to ignore - no matter which era.

As for American Idol, if Karen were 19 right now, I think she would present herself in a way which would be quite engaging to the audience. I also think promoters now a days would capitalize on Karen's rather unusual, but striking beauty.

[enigma]

Also remember that when the Carpenters came out they were alternative and their image and sound were not mainstream. The squeaky clean easy listening music was not popular at the time. The Carpenters came out when acid rock and heavy metal was the mainstream. Bands like Alice Cooper, Aerosmith, Black Sabath and especially Led Zepplin were popular or gaining popularity at this time and the Carpenters were considered alternative at the time yet still managed to sell records based on Karens voice and the quality of their music. I don't think it would be different in this music scene dominated by Rap R&B and Teen Idols (which I include American Idol under).

This is a good topic and Rick I like the way you described Karen's "rather unusual, but striking beauty" I think you hit the nail on the head there thats exactly as I would describe her.

[steve]

Hi,Rick and Enigma...Great point about the Carpenters coming out when the big thing was heavy rock!! As for "Image",I guess it is very discouraging to me just how much of the current music biz is about "Image"...When I grew up I used to LISTEN to music, and today I think most of the kids WATCH music on MTV..This has made the way you look and how you act a primary factor in how marketable you are..I cant stand this, as I am rather old school and still want to hear how you sound..I happen to have known a singer who is breaking out big time in todays market(I cant mention names only because I think it would be inapropriate),and this singer was "repackaged" in order to appeal to the kids..My daughter(The singer) is being repackaged now, because I have been told over and over again that the "Talent" is there,but the style of music and packaging are not there yet..SOON she will have a whole new look and musical style..This is what much of the current music scene is about..Hillary duff is a perfect example as she has been marketed and packaged to appeal to the segment of the public that buys the most records(CDS)..If it was about real talent,creativity and quality I can find alot of artists who would be bigger but arent..As an example of a really brilliant young artist I will recomend and artist named Celeste Moore at www.celestemoore.com .This kid composes the most beautiful original classical music I have heard in quite sometime and plays her pieces on piano(She doesnt sing on the CD)..Her Cd was done when she was 15 years old!! She is relatively unheard of, while Hillary Duff is a major star!! The difference is image and marketing in my opinion..The Carpenters are one of my alltime favorite artists to listen to and I still play the music all the time in my house!!Karen Carpenter is really one of the best singers of all time,but I still wonder if they could have done what they did back then and made it today?? Maybe ,like Rick suggests they would have been just as big,but doing a little different style of music?? I am just so happy that they came around when they did, and were able to put out the great, brilliant music that they did in the seventies!!!I kind of believe in "Destiny"and it was the Carpenters destiny to come out and impact the world just when they did, and I wouldnt have wanted it any other way..The carpenters rich legacy lives on !!! God bless! Steve

[ThomB]

Moe said:

I do disagree with you about Richard. I think Richard could have been a very sucessful producer for other singers or picked another wonderful singer to team up with to produce "the sound." I also think he would have been wonderful at scoring films. ...

Richard did produce several other, but never achieved any success. Dionne Warwick and Dusty Springfield each recorded a song for Richard. The Dusty Springfield song is absolutely fabulous, but really sold absolutely nothing - can't understand that one. Richard also produced a singer named B.L. Mitchell who came and went unnoticed in 1978. He also produced Scott Grimes (1989), Akiko (1989), Veronique (1989), so there have been several and Richard's work was impeccable, but for some reason without Karen something's missing.

Karen on the other hand I think anything she would have done would have been hugely successful. I really think the main reason the Carpenters were as successful as they were is because of Karen. Her one in a million voice, her looks, her unique personality, the fact that she was a female drummer. She was just a one of a kind that you just could not pass by without noticing.