Only yesterday BBC docu

[enigma]

Rick if this subject has been posted elsewhere please forgive me and either give me a link to attach this post to or somehow place this on the appropriate thread.

There was yet another Carpenters documentary made by the bbc called Only Yesterday which may have been mentioned earlier. I just viewed this again thinking that this is just one of countless documentaries ho hum nothing new but was surprised at some of the revelations. not so much revelations but kind of dispelling the myths and setting the record straight (if you believe Richards accounts of Carpenters\Karen Carpenters history) I found out some things I did not know before about the story of the Carpenters and it is one of the better quality documentaries video and audio wise that I have in my over sized collection. If you do not own or have not seen a Carpenters documentary this is one of the best and most complete and for me it supplements my other documentaries quite well. there are also some short clips (interviews and "live" material) some of which I have not seen which is always a treat for me. Just wanted to (re)introduce this Carpenters documentary reccomend it and post some of my thoughts overall it was well done and is worth getting or viewing in my opinion. that's the E story!

[Rick Henry]

Hi E, yes we've discussed this documentary several times on this forum as it has been around quite a few years now.

Anyhow, I have heard it is one of the better docs out there and I've watched more than half of it in bits and pieces throughout the internet.

I am curious what did you discover or shall I say which dispelling of myths or revelations did you discover? What was set straight.

As for believing Richard Carpenter's accounts I am generally only 50% with him. I find that he "whitewashes" the truth on certain topics. Mostly when it concerns Karen's solo album and the circumstances behind her death and autopsy reports.

[Rick Henry]

I must continue to say that although I do not believe everything Richard carpenter says and I certainly do not agree with many of his opinions or viewpoints. I will say that I do have respect for him as an individual and as an artist. I feel the works he created with Karen are amongst the finest of an entire generation and beyond.

My feelings on other aspects of Richard Carpenter are my own feelings and those of you who do not agree with the way I feel do not have to agree with me. My feelings come from my personal experiences and from my own viewpoints on certain situations. I know that many of you here do not like my viewpoint on Richard Carpenter, but let's face the reality of things here, there are some true discrepancies in the truth of certain matters. Anyhow, I was not there in person to see what really happened... so I can only speak of what I do know in these situations. And it seems very odd to me that in some cases Richard says one thing while others say something completely different.

Anyhow, Enigma I am still interested to hear what you discovered in this documentary. I am interested to hear about the myths you feel were dispelled. I would very much like to discuss this.

[enigma]

Jun 16, 2009 8:21:46 GMT -5 Rick Henry said:

Hi E, yes we've discussed this documentary several times on this forum as it has been around quite a few years now.

Anyhow, I have heard it is one of the better docs out there and I've watched more than half of it in bits and pieces throughout the internet.

I am curious what did you discover or shall I say which dispelling of myths or revelations did you discover? What was set straight.

As for believing Richard Carpenter's accounts I am generally only 50% with him. I find that he "whitewashes" the truth on certain topics. Mostly when it concerns Karen's solo album and the circumstances behind her death and autopsy reports.

Hi Rick

First off as far as setting things straight it is a matter of whether you believe Richards version of events as he is the primary interviewee in the documentary but his statements as well as seeing interviews with record execs Karen's friends and former boyfriends I get a little clearer picture of what happened and it is close to the stories I have heard but not exactly as others have told it.

First off is Richard saying that there were 4 songs submitted to RCA as the Richard Carpenter Trio not as many believe an entire albums worth of work people have contended that a whole "lost album" exists in RCA's archives or in Richards possession of RCT material I tend to believe Richard as I have only seen the 4 songs (and I have them somewhere) There were also rumors of a spectrum record (the one they shopped around before disbanding) this I believe became Offering so there are no lost albums of early Carpenter material till I see different I will buy into what Richard said.

Also interesting that friends of Karen stated that her ED was later in life I still believe the roots of her ED were present much earlier that when the physical signs showed up.

Now for the solo record a few things were so called set straight here and I will leave some comments on this whole segment.

First there is a clip of Richard doing and interview talking about the time of the solo record conception and this was very interesting to me. this is what Richard was saying he said that Karen called him when he was in rehab and said she was doing a solo record and could not and would not do it without his blessing in the interview Richard said well of course I would support Karen doing a solo record he had a facial expression like how ridiculous of Karen to ask that. He then went into a whispering aside of just don't make a disco record because disco was popular as a music form and it just was not Karen he then throws his hand in the air and says then she played the record as if to say that the record ended up being a disco record and they played My Body Keeps Changing My Mind the one disco sounding song to further emphasize his point. This floored me when I saw it because Richard was doctoring the truth to justify rejecting the solo record himself. He could have played lovelines (he named a Carpenters album after it) but because it is not a disco record it would not fit his argument or justify him not liking the solo record so I found this stacking the deck in his favor a little strange at least thats how I saw this segment.

Next the interview of Jerry Moss of A&M records where he stated that he heard the record and he saw no strong material there further stating that to save Karen the rejection and disappointment of a record he was sure was going to be a failure he said they probably would not support releasing the record going on th say that Karen always considered herself a Carpenter first not a solo act. I wonder who he was protecting Karen or the Carpenters who A&M invested alot of time and money in and I also wonder how an East coast rep from A&M would view the record he might see it as a bold move in a new updated direction and take a chance and release the record we will never know.

Finally Richard said that he knows people say he killed the solo record or the Carpenter family's reaction kept it from being release he called it hogwash and adamantly stated it was solely Karen's decision to shelve the solo project to record a new Carpenters record. Like Rick I don't believe that statement and it is that statement that is hogwash there is just too much evidence that contradicts it.

These solo record stories are not so much new but they were an eye opener when you hear them straight from the horses mouth facial expressions and all you cant say its a made up story or a misquote when you hear it straight from the person(s) who said it.

I do not think Richard is lying about the whole solo thing but he is minimizing his involvement in it being shelved. Considering how much Karen valued Richards opinion and reactions his involvement was big in the project being shelved.

Another interesting story was the infamous parking lot argument that Richard and Karen had where she read him the riot act for not supporting her in her treatment and saying she was still sick when she was trying to get better I never knew that Karen went to a parking lot where Richard was shopping and confronted him when he came out of the store Richard said that he came out and saw another Jaguar parked next to his and recognized as Karen's and knew he was in trouble because Karen hunted him down and thats never a good thing.

[Rick Henry]

First E, I want to thank you very much for taking the time to type this out.

I want to add that Richard's comments on what happened with Karen's solo album are HOGWASH. 100% HOGWASH. I want to emphasize this.

As you mentioned E, there is just too much evidence that it was not Karen who wanted this album shelved. She may have ultimately agreed to the shelving of the album, but that is only because she was pretty much coerced into it. I know this from interviews I have done with people who were there. This is one thing that really upsets me.

Then Jerry Moss is brought into the picture, I guess to somehow validate that the album was not a good album. But, if we get the other side of the story there were others out there who were fighting vigorously to get Karen's solo album released. People who were just as powerful and talented as Jerry Moss and Richard Carpenter, that would be Phil Ramone and Quincy Jones. Quincy Jones (one of the most powerful and talented men in music) wanted to see Karen's album released, he thought it was a great work as did Phil Ramone, Olivia Newton-John and Karen Carpenter herself. for every person that Richard Carpenter can come up with to say the album was a dud, there is one who will say the album was a fantastic and adventurous work. It's just the one's holding the purse strings were the ones who didn't want it released.

As popular as the dance, funk, jazz and new wave tunes were in late 1979 and 1980 the album was a natural for release. I have ears and if the album were truly a dud I would be the first to say so. You know me, I do not hold back my opinion when it comes to music. Anyhow, this will never be solved and history has happened as it has. It's just a shame that Karen did not get the opportunity to shine for that one time on her own, to be proud of something she worked so very hard on. A work which was superbly produced with the finest musicians in the industry. Her solo album was every bit as adventurous and musically intense as the best Carpenters records.

I do not care what Richard Carpenter or Jerry Moss say about this because I have ears and this is an excellent record and had it been released in 1979/80 it was destined to be a hit, it was too good to flop. Anybody who says the album doesn't have a hit single on it, just is not being truthful or does not have an ear for what was really hot in 1979/80. "If I Had You" alone could have been a huge hit, Top 5. "Making Love In The Afternoon", "Guess I Just Lost My Head" and "Make Believe It's your first time" were all very strong songs and all had hit potential.

Of course not everybody has the same taste in music, so of course there will be those that will not like the album. But in the sense of musicianship and vocal performance the album is top of the line first rate. Not a bad song on the album. I've heard some people say Karen did not sound convincing singing these songs. I don''t get it. She sings these songs with a renewed verve and excitement in her voice. She is ecstatic and sounded the best she had in the past 5 years.

As history has it Karen's solo album when it was finally released in 1996 did not chart so some people try to say that it was a failure afterall. But, that is not a fair assessment as the album was released 16 years after it's intended release date and it was released with almost zero publicity. But, if you look at the overall picture of Karen's album it has actually been a big success in that it has sold over 1 million copies worldwide (that's over three times more than both of Richard's solo albums put together). Beyond the sales several of the songs from her solo album get regular internet radio play to this very day. On top of that quite a few DJ's have done remixes of her solo songs and the interest of her album has continued to grow and gain momentum to this very day. There are several hundreds of thousands of fans who agree that Karen's solo album is an excellent work and should have been released in 1979/80.

Anyhow, I am going to get off the subject of the solo album because it only gets me upset. I think this was a great disservice to Karen Carpenter and to the fans.

As for the RCA songs I believe it was Richard who commented in the Ray Coleman book that there had been two sides recorded by the RCT for RCA. Two sides meaning two sides of an album... which in those days meant anywhere from 8 to 12 songs.

Anyhow, as it is I only know of four songs also which are "Iced Tea", "Strangers In The Night", "Every Little Thing" and "The Girl From Ipenema".

As for Karen's eating disorder, I remember hearing about some water diet in or around 1969/70.

[enigma]

Rick first I mentioned the solo record controversy in the context of the documentary with some of my comments more as a testeent to what we already knew regarding Richards view of the situation it seems he does read some of what is said on the internet regarding the situation but is clearly sticking to his story I did not really want to get too much into the situation as I like you am a little too emotionally involved in the situation I am not a fan of someone insulting my intelligence with a story that does not make alot of sense I could say so much more on it but I basically have this controversy come down to this: I have heard Richards version of events I have heard Phil Ramone's version of events that went on that day and afterward Phil's story just makes more sense and I find no contradictions. If I took both versions of events and some background regarding the whole solo project (what it was and what it involved told by people who were actually there making the record with Karen) Phi'ls version fits more with the history of the solo record Richards does not it tends to contradict it. Simply put nobody would invest alot of time and money and effort into a project to shelve it they would want it completed and released in the case of an album whether its Karen or anybody else Karen did not do this record to kill time while Richard was in rehab she had a purpose and was determined to see the project all the way through including a release of the album it just makes sense to me. I just wanted to abstract my feelings on the situation since it was kind of brought up.

Rick another interesting thing in the documentary that I missed or forgot for all these years is the 4 people who were at that solo record meeting meeting there was Richard Karen and Phil not a surprise there but I did find it curious that it was Jerry Moss not Herb Alpert at the solo record meeting I have always heard that Jerry Moss never supported having the Carpenters with A&M after the first record he suggested that Herb Alpert cut his losses and release the Carpenters from the label and I have been told that Jerry Moss did not really care for the Carpenters even when they were making his label money I wonder if Herb Alpert would have the same reaction as Moss or would he support Karen just a thought that came to mind.

Of course Rick I love the solo record what makes it truly good to me is the fact that I can put it down come back to it and feel the energy and excitement as if I am hearing it for the first time. The time and effort put into the record from the participants on the record to Karen's personal involvement make me appreciate the solo record all the more but its the music I hear that makes it a real treat if I did not like the record I would have put it away and never wanted to listen to it again that is far from the feeling I get from this record. Rick like you I have my own ears like I have my own opinion critics so called industry experts and even Richard Carpenter himself are not going to tell me something is crap when I love what I hear.

[Rick Henry]

Thank you E... I was beginning to think I was the only one here with such a passionate viewpoint on this subject.

That is interesting that herb Alpert was not involved in this meeting. It could be he did not want to see Karen hurt as Herb did have strong feelings for Karen. Herb Alpert may have liked the album as listening to his album released in 1979 and 1980 the musical style is very similar to what Karen did with her solo record. Both "Rise" and "Beyond" (Herb's 79 and 80 albums) contained elements of pop, funk, R&B, jazz and disco. Those two albums play very well alongside Karen's solo album. Karen was right in there with what was happening in the music scene at the time. She had a hot property that was ready to explode.

I did a little more research on the Richard Carpenter Trio RCA recordings. In the "Essential Collection" liner notes (which I believe were either authored or approved by Richard Carpenter), it states that eleven sides were recorded for RCA Records. Including the song "Flat Baroque". The same comment is mentioned in the Ray Coleman book which was authorized by Richard Carpenter.

In my own collection I have the four songs I mentioned earlier:
Iced Tea"
"Strangers In The Night"
"Every Little Thing"
"The Girl From Ipenema"

Now we can add "Flat Baroque" to that list (which I do not own that early RCT version), but we know about it as it is specifically named in either the book or the liner notes. That's five songs we know of for sure.

In the case of the RCT songs I think this is more of a situation of Richard's memory being foggy after all this all happened more than 40 years ago.

One thing I do think Richard is holding back on is the amount of unreleased songs that do exist. I could be wrong but I feel there are enough songs out there to fill two albums worth of music. I think there are unreleased and/or outtake tracks from all the studio albums going all the way back to "Offering". There may not be any left over from "Passage" or "Made In America" as many of those outtakes were released on "Voice of the Heart" and "Lovelines".

I do think that from "Offering" to "A Kind Of Hush" there must be something like 10 to 15 outtakes sitting around somewhere. They may be in varying degrees of completion, but I would surely love to hear them.

I recall Richard saying at some point that some of these unreleased tunes are subpar and not up to Carpenters standards or a types of songs that do not fit the Carpenters mold.

I don't know about the rest of you here, but I personally tend to like the songs that don't fit the Carpenters mold the best. As for subpar, the Carpenters' legacy is already set in stone and releasing an album of outtakes (which most likely will only be purchased by diehard fans) will not change or harm that legacy one bit. What it will do is make about 1 million fans worldwide very happy.

Anyhow, that is not a complaint on my part, just a wish. I would love to have yet one more album of previously unheard songs with Karen's voice.

[YesterdayOnceMore]

No, you're not the only one who is passionate about this one, Rick. Though I don't have nearly as much to say about it as you, I can tell everyone that I have never truly believed anything different than the fact that Richard Carpenter was "afraid" to let this one go out, because he suspected it was as good as it really is.



At the time it was made and produced, and by one of our generation's most talented producers, Phil Ramone, it would have been an album that was played and talked about even more than it is now. I have to agree that there were many "hits" on the album, and I truly do believe Richard was afraid, even after all of the consoling Karen did saying to him that to her, Carpenters was the most important thing - I think Richard was afraid Karen was going to "run away without him." I think he felt that if she was able to take this "solo" thing to the max, and actually release the recording at a time when it was perfect for the music of the day - that he might just lose his sister, and the other half of his "act" to the general public as the sweetheart with the voice of an angel.



I don't buy for one second that Karen made the decision to shelve it - at least, not because she wanted to. Not after what she said to Phil Ramone about it. It's as good as she thought it was. I think what Karen did, what Richard is calling "making the decision" is that she tried to keep peace between the two of them, and the only way to do that at the time was to appease Richard, and agree with HIM. She certainly wouldn't have made the decision to can the recording she worked so long and hard on, and spent her own money on, for goodness sakes.




Hmm...maybe I do have more to say than I thought. Jerry Moss - he was looking out for..................why, JERRY MOSS!!! He wanted to be sure the Carpenters, as duo, continued to make recordings that would continue to make A&M the millions they were raking in before. Moss didn't want to "take a chance" on the fact that Karen's solo effort might not be as big as another Carpenter's album, and that it might, perhaps, distract listeners from purchasing the next album done by the duo. All Jerry Moss was thinking about, and no one could convince me differently, was himself and A&M. And, all Richard Carpenter was thinking about was himself, and himself.



Karen didn't stand a chance with this one. Karen conceded not to release the album - she didn't DECIDE not to release it. She was coerced into it lock, stock and barrel, as they say. I fault Richard for this. And....as much as I think of his amazing musical abilities, I think he was so wrong to have done this. Way, way wrong. In fact, I would go so far as to think that Richard is still, somehow, "blaming" Karen for ruining his duo, by her death. That probably sounds really crass, and I don't mean it to - I just think it's the truth. I do think he "blames" Karen, in some odd way, for having broken up the duo, first by this act of what he must have considered treason, and secondly, by her premature death. It seems he still is not able to get past it, at any rate.



I think this album would have been solid gold, truthfully - and I don't think Karen Carpenter made the decision to shelve it, on her own. I believe her hands were absolutely tied. Such a sad statement, eh?

[Rick Henry]

I don't have much time... as I am between appointments and on the run... but I had to comment on Tim's last post. WOW, that's all I can say. I have never heard you so passionate and so forth forward about anything (anyway not on the forum). I am impressed.

I will come back to comment further. I also enjoyed your post on Carpenters in the news 2009... I will comment in that one also.

Before going, I do want to say that I do have a good amount of respect for Richard Carpenter and I think he is immensely talented. You know we are all human and make mistakes along the way. But, this is one (Karen's solo album) that is long overdue for a reassessment.