Counter-Culture or Mainstream?

[Rick Henry]

With the Carpenters' music showing up in movies like "Ghost Rider", "Juno" and "1408". Bands like Sonic Youth becoming hugely popular with tributes to Carpenters and legions of "goth" music fans catching onto Carpenters I ask this question.

Are Carpenters slowly developing a fan base with the counter-culture, the underground?

What are your viewpoints?

Let's have an intelligent conversation on the impact of Carpenters in our modern society.

[smoothie2]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No, really Rick, I'm not mad at anyone around here, it's I'm hooked on Carps. videos ....so I'll clock in here now and then....
(just a-teasing)
Ok.....uh...perhaps so in answer to your question Rick...
But to clarify it in my mind....counter-culture....fans that have a thing for these "dark side of the moon" type of movies, and/or those who are discovering the Carpenters music and fitting it in with their way of thinking?
I think there must be something of the sort going on.
The young people and the world of music they have now is a lot different in some ways than it was when we were in our teens.
And yet, of course, people of all ages are fans of the C's.
Maybe, it is because I'm middle aged now, but it seems there are
a lot of "dark" movies, more horror, more gore and bloody movies than there used to be.
SO ironic...."We've only Just Begun"....the sweetness, purity of such a song and then Superstar....
The Carps. are seen through the eyes of new people.
So, I say yes, to the question.
...... I'm not sure though what you mean by mainstream ...?

[Rick Henry]

"Mainstream" is a label that critics and the media have for a very long time boxed the Carpenters into. Though, it seems that with in the last ten years Carpenters' (and Karen's solo) music is proving many of their critics wrong, just simply by the broad range of people that find their music appealing.

Today, is a different world from the 70's. The youth of today see things different from the way we did in the 70's. They like Carpenters for different reasons than us mid-aged fans do (well not entirely different... bottom line it's the music and primarily Karen's voice that keeps attracting new fans generation after generation). Anyway, that's what I perceive. Hopefully some of the younger fans like CG and sunnybunny can shed some light on this for us.

[smoothie2]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
hmmm..yes, I know others will give us more insight on the subject....

[smoothie2]

Indeed the Carps. are still enjoyed by so many and it surprises me that once again they are in the news. I don't think they can ever become unpopular. In fact, knowing their songs are being acknowledged in movies and the media in general is really a great thing.
They are classics!
They have come "full circle" now that I think about it, when their music was first broadcast to the world, they really were different with their sound, not embraced by many and yet proved to be something that touched us.
War was going on as well as so many other things.
They have come full circle because they surely had an impact. People really enjoyed their special talents. Their music as well as they themselves, were embraced.
Impacted us then and that force never went away.
++++++++++++++++++
Their harmony soothed us and added some Smile to the world just as it still does.
Rick thanks for your thoughts.

[Rick Henry]

Yes, their music added some smile to the world. Though, on the other end of the spectrum, Karen's deep and rich voice touched millions of people around the world. Her voice had the ability to reach into the deep recesses of the soul and grab you where it. You could feel her soul in her voice.

[carpentersgermany]

Apr 30, 2008 21:05:26 GMT -5 Rick Henry said:

Today, is a different world from the 70's. The youth of today see things different from the way we did in the 70's. They like Carpenters for different reasons than us mid-aged fans do (well not entirely different... bottom line it's the music and primarily Karen's voice that keeps attracting new fans generation after generation). Anyway, that's what I perceive. Hopefully some of the younger fans like CG and sunnybunny can shed some light on this for us.

Very very interesting topic, Rick. I enjoyed reading the statements that have been made here.
It's kind of hard for me to add something concerning the mainstream - underground-thing you mentioned, because I think Carpenters are rooted first and foremost in the American pop-culture, which always had a huge impact on German pop-culture, but I'm not able to estimate any trends etc.
Furthermore I don't know much about counter-culture or the underground..
So on that score it's up to sunnybunny

But as I already stated, I think the impact of Carpenters music today is a very interesting topic to talk about.
In the German Facebook-version we also have Carpenters-group (two groups actually).
On this base I designed a little "statistic" or demography of Carpenters fans among German students.
It was kind of interesting. I hope you enjoy it:

We have two groups:
Carpenters: 45 members

The Carpenters: 10 members

(We also have some other Carpenters-related groups, like "We've only just begun"(10 members) and since last week "Karen Anne Carpenter - She's the voice" (5 members) for instance)
I got my information from the "Carpenters"-Group (45 members)

23 female members - 22 male members

average age: 25 (youngest: 19 - oldest: 36)

favourite musical genres:

Pop: 13
(Indie-)Rock: 10
House/Electro: 5
Jazz/Funk: 4
Classic: 3
"Oldies"/Evergreens: 3

favourite Carpenters songs:

6 votes
Rainy Days and Mondays
(They long to be) Close to you

3 votes
Top of the World
Only Yesterday
We've only just begun
Sweet Sweet Smile

2 votes
Sing
Superstar
Love me for what I am
Rainbow Connection
Goodbye to Love
Those Good Old Dreams

1 vote
I need to be in love
Please Mr. Postman
Maybe it's you
For all we know
If I had you
This Masquerade
Lovelines
I won't last a day without you
Where do I go from here
Solitaire
Crescent Noon
Sometimes
Touch me when we're dancing
Jambalaya
Ticket to Ride
All you get from love is a love song

We do not interact that much in the group, but what I can say according to the members profiles:

there seem two be two main groups: the (pop-)music lovers and the intellectual/artistically minded ones. No Goths.
There were many homosexuals among the male members.
What I found most remarkable was that only three members had a musical taste that was strictly focused on 60s/70s. All the others (like me) liked contemporary music styles and artists as you can see above.

I think that shows that there's something special about the Carpenters and their music that fascinates young people like me, who usually do not listen to music from back then..
Even if I could not answer what this special thing might be, I hope you'll find the little information I compiled interesting!

[Rick Henry]

In a poll we did here about a year and a half ago. With something like 30 people voting the overwhelmingly favorite song was "Only Yesterday".


Here's how the poll ended up...

40. (I'm Caught Between) Goodbye and I Love You (Horizon)
39. You (A Kind Of Hush)
38. Sweet Sweet Smile (Passage)
37. Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas (Christmas Portrait)
36. Let Me Be The One (Carpenters)
35. A Song For You (A song For You)
34. Please Mr. Postman (Horizon)
33. Solitaire (Horizon)
32. It's Going To Take Sometime (A Song For You)
31. Make Believe it's your first time (Karen Carpenter solo)
30. Sometimes (Carpenters)
29. Ordinary Fool (Voice Of The Heart)
28. Ave Maria (Christmas Portrait)
27. I Can Dream Can't I? (Horizon)
26. Top Of The world (A song for you)
25. Leave Yesterday Behind (As Time goes by)
24. Guess I Just Lost My Head (Karen Carpenter)
23. Little altar Boy (An Old Fashioned Christmas)
22. I Can't Make Music (Now And then)
21. Love Me For What I Am (Horizon)
20. Sing (Now and Then)
19. Mr. Guder (Close To You)
18. If I Had You (Karen Carpenter)
17. I Won't Last A Day Without You ( A Song For You)
16. Boat to Sail (A Kind Of Hush)
15. One More Time (A Kind Of Hush)
14. Making Love In The Afternoon (Karen Carpenter)
13. Yesterday Once More (Now And Then)
12. Two Sides (Passage)
11. Desperado (Horizon)
10. Goodbye To Love (A Song For You)
9. Crescent Noon (Close To You)
8. (They Long To Be) Close To You (Close To You)
7. Superstar (Carpenters)
6. Tryin' To Get The Feeling Again (Interpretations)
5. Road Ode (A Song For You)
4. We've Only Just Begun (Close To You)
3. This Masquerade (Now And Then)
2. Rainy Days And Mondays (Carpenters)
1. Only Yesterday (Horizon)

Most of the people who voted in this are die-hard Carpenters fans, that's why several of the album tracks such as "Road Ode", "Desperado", "This Masquerade", "Tryin' To Get The feeling Again" and "Crescent Noon" rank really high on this chart. the die-hard fans love the hits but seem to really love the album cuts even more. Whereas your casual carpenters fan really only knows the hits.

[makapipi]

I think Carpenters are Mainstream because I hear them 3-6 times a day on the oldies station
99.5 The Jewel. "The Jewel where all the best music is played"

[smoothie2]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Interesting stats CG and Rick on how the songs are listed.
I understand what is meant by mainstream now.
I guess with Richard and Karen, they have a very vast appeal to so many that yes, they are still mainstream as far as music goes in the past as well as now. And yet to others their "darker" songs, grab them in that way.
Yes, Karen's unique vocals perfectly match whatever song she touched.
No doubt.

[wisejester7]

The Carpenters really can't be pegged one way or the other. They have a vast appeal and a knack for crossing over 'boundaries' other bands can't.

You might say the Carpenters were counter-culture when they were active and touring, because they were so different from the hard music sound that was coming into vogue then. Their attitude and image went directly against the direction being taken by the war protesting, anti-establishment groupies. They were shunned by a good many of their generation as being just too sticky sweet.
At the same time, the Carpenters were embraced by the 'mainstream', who considered these talented kids as being a breath of fresh air. You even saw the President cull them in and call them America's youth at it's finest.

Fast forward to today ... well, not much has changed. The underground, the mainstream,the counter-culture ... all can and have found something to embrace in the Carpenters and their music.

The bottom line is fine, beautiful music beautifully expressed by talented musicians and carried by one of the most emotive voices of all time.

[Rick Henry]

May 2, 2008 6:03:40 GMT -5 wisejester7 said:

The Carpenters really can't be pegged one way or the other. They have a vast appeal and a knack for crossing over 'boundaries' other bands can't.

You might say the Carpenters were counter-culture when they were active and touring, because they were so different from the hard music sound that was coming into vogue then. Their attitude and image went directly against the direction being taken by the war protesting, anti-establishment groupies. They were shunned by a good many of their generation as being just too sticky sweet.
At the same time, the Carpenters were embraced by the 'mainstream', who considered these talented kids as being a breath of fresh air. You even saw the President cull them in and call them America's youth at it's finest.

Fast forward to today ... well, not much has changed. The underground, the mainstream,the counter-culture ... all can and have found something to embrace in the Carpenters and their music.

The bottom line is fine, beautiful music beautifully expressed by talented musicians and carried by one of the most emotive voices of all time.

WJ7... your comment has to be the most accurate made in this entire thread. So much truth rings in what you've said. Carpenters have always (to a degree) represented both the counter-culture and the mainstream. Their sound was different from the "harder rock" popular at that time, but at the same pointed employed several elements of "rock" music though wrapped with a softer edge. By doing this Carpenters were able to appeal to the youth and the elders.

What's interesting is that Carpenters can and do appeal to a cross section of different attitudes and backgrounds. Although CG said there weren't any goths on the German Facebook group... although if you look into it many people who prefer Goth music seem to list Carpenters (or really more so Karen Carpenter) in their music tastes. I am going to do a study on this and will share results with you.

I've also noticed a good amount of male fans of the bands Rush, ELO and the Beatles (primarily John Lennon fans) also like Carpenters.

I do a lot of traveling around the internet and I take notice of trends. I don't just look at other Carpenters/Karen Carpenter sites and forum, but get a lot of my information from general music blogs. I also get a good amount of information from our sister site on MySpace... The Carpenters Online. With a friends list of over 2,500 people one is able to get a taste of different trends from people of varied backgrounds.

The Carpenters Online on MySpace: Click Here

[carpentersgermany]

May 2, 2008 8:49:45 GMT -5 Rick Henry said:

May 2, 2008 6:03:40 GMT -5 wisejester7 said:

The Carpenters really can't be pegged one way or the other. They have a vast appeal and a knack for crossing over 'boundaries' other bands can't.

You might say the Carpenters were counter-culture when they were active and touring, because they were so different from the hard music sound that was coming into vogue then. Their attitude and image went directly against the direction being taken by the war protesting, anti-establishment groupies. They were shunned by a good many of their generation as being just too sticky sweet.
At the same time, the Carpenters were embraced by the 'mainstream', who considered these talented kids as being a breath of fresh air. You even saw the President cull them in and call them America's youth at it's finest.

Fast forward to today ... well, not much has changed. The underground, the mainstream,the counter-culture ... all can and have found something to embrace in the Carpenters and their music.

The bottom line is fine, beautiful music beautifully expressed by talented musicians and carried by one of the most emotive voices of all time.

WJ7... your comment has to be the most accurate made in this entire thread. So much truth rings in what you've said. Carpenters have always (to a degree) represented both the counter-culture and the mainstream. Their sound was different from the "harder rock" popular at that time, but at the same pointed employed several elements of "rock" music though wrapped with a softer edge. By doing this Carpenters were able to appeal to the youth and the elders.

What's interesting is that Carpenters can and do appeal to a cross section of different attitudes and backgrounds. Although CG said there weren't any goths on the German Facebook group... although if you look into it many people who prefer Goth music seem to list Carpenters (or really more so Karen Carpenter) in their music tastes. I am going to do a study on this and will share results with you.

I've also noticed a good amount of male fans of the bands Rush, ELO and the Beatles (primarily John Lennon fans) also like Carpenters.

I do a lot of traveling around the internet and I take notice of trends. I don't just look at other Carpenters/Karen Carpenter sites and forum, but get a lot of my information from general music blogs. I also get a good amount of information from our sister site on MySpace... The Carpenters Online. With a friends list of over 2,500 people one is able to get a taste of different trends from people of varied backgrounds.

The Carpenters Online on MySpace: Click Here

I agree, very intelligent post, WJ7!

And Rick, I'm eager to get to know what your little "trend research" will bring to light..

I just started a thread in the Facebook (studiVZ actually) group where I asked what people like about the carpenters. As I already mentioned, people are not that interactive there, but maybe I'll get a few answers though..

[smoothie2]

Fantastic input by all...interesting!

[Rick Henry]

May 2, 2008 9:37:38 GMT -5 carpentersgermany said:

May 2, 2008 8:49:45 GMT -5 Rick Henry said:

WJ7... your comment has to be the most accurate made in this entire thread. So much truth rings in what you've said. Carpenters have always (to a degree) represented both the counter-culture and the mainstream. Their sound was different from the "harder rock" popular at that time, but at the same pointed employed several elements of "rock" music though wrapped with a softer edge. By doing this Carpenters were able to appeal to the youth and the elders.

What's interesting is that Carpenters can and do appeal to a cross section of different attitudes and backgrounds. Although CG said there weren't any goths on the German Facebook group... although if you look into it many people who prefer Goth music seem to list Carpenters (or really more so Karen Carpenter) in their music tastes. I am going to do a study on this and will share results with you.

I've also noticed a good amount of male fans of the bands Rush, ELO and the Beatles (primarily John Lennon fans) also like Carpenters.

I do a lot of traveling around the internet and I take notice of trends. I don't just look at other Carpenters/Karen Carpenter sites and forum, but get a lot of my information from general music blogs. I also get a good amount of information from our sister site on MySpace... The Carpenters Online. With a friends list of over 2,500 people one is able to get a taste of different trends from people of varied backgrounds.

The Carpenters Online on MySpace: Click Here

I agree, very intelligent post, WJ7!

And Rick, I'm eager to get to know what your little "trend research" will bring to light..

I just started a thread in the Facebook (studiVZ actually) group where I asked what people like about the carpenters. As I already mentioned, people are not that interactive there, but maybe I'll get a few answers though..

I haven't started my research yet, but will send out a few questions to the people at The Carpenters Online on MySpace. usually I get pretty good response there.