passage vs made in america

[karl]

HI
Which Album is your favourite ive picked passage because its shows the carpenters as experimental and versatile and trying to find new direction in their career.While made in america is ok it is not really direction carpenters should have been taking in 1980/81.

Info on sales.

Passage 1977.
UK 100,000 sales
USA 400,000 sales
japan 50,000 sales.

Made in America 1981
UK 60,000 sales
USA 75,000 sales
japan 30,000 sales

[Rick Henry]

Easily "Passage" on this one. "Passage" shown a much needed growth for the Carpenters. The diversity in songs and musical styles gives proof that Carpenters were not stuck in just one mode. Carpenters were mulit-talented and were at home in many genres oftentimes crossing musical boundaries and combining styles and genres to develop a fresh sound. Songs like "All You Get From Love Is A Love Song", "B'wana She No Home", "Sweet, Sweet Smile" and "Two Sides" demonstrate their verve and diversification. Song for song "Passage" is a much stronger album. "Don't Cry For Me Argentina" is one of Karen's most pure and exciting vocal performances. "I Just Fall In Love Again" is a classic love ballad with a stellar musical production... this should have been a single. "Calling Occupants" is a majestic tune which has somehow maintained a level of popularity throughout the decades.

"Made In America" was a step back for Carpenters. After Karen recorded her solo album, she learned quite a bit about stretching her boundaries and further than before. It seems like with MIA, Richard Carpenter and A&M completely went the opposite direction and played it safe, hence producing a somewhat tedious and pedestrian album. At this point in their careers Carpenters had so much experience behind them, that they should have been able to produce quite an exquisite and majestic album... something along the lines of "Horizon". They should have taken some chances and continued with what they started on "Passage", the new sound and new look (that being the great logo) would have caught on and become popular. Songs such as "When It's Gone"and "When You've Got What it Takes" fail to inspire musically and seem to drag on a bit too long... each becoming somewhat monotonous. Karen's vocal performances on songs such as "Because We Are In Love" and "Somebody's Been Lyin" are at points strained and sound like she is not all too interested in putting her all into it. "Beechwood 4-5789" (cute fun song as it is) should not have been recorded... instead they should have recorded another "This Masquerade" or something like Karen's solo "Guess I Just Lost My Head". I've always been a firm believer that a great album should open strong and close strong. MIA opens with "Those Good Old Dreams", which is a good song (a pretty good song), but it's not a great song. Then MIA closes with "Beechwood"... a less than inspiring end for any album. On the overall lacked the verve, energy and originality to inspire people to want to buy the record, even more than half of their die-hard fans skipped out on buying MIA.

Even in album covers, the cover for "Passage" is far better, it's artsy and colorful with a hint of dark mystery... and did I mention I love the new logo. The cover for MIA is somewhat embarrassing... I can't imagine that Karen and Richard could have been too pleased with this cover, seeing how much they were trying to distance themselves from that ever present "goody two shoes" image. I feel this is their worst album cover.

To me "Made In America" signifies an album where Karen most likely had very little to almost no input as to what the album was to be - everything from the music to the album cover - it seems like the powers that be at A&M governed this album. It's too bad that the Carpenters' last album together was not a masterpiece.

[enigma]

not as clear cut a choice for me as I am one of the few Carpenter fans who actually liked MIA.

Both passage and MIA had strong and weak parts in the records I will give a slight edge to pasage for a few reasons. First it was an ambitious effort to say the least it was experimental it had a big sound in alot of the songs it featured Peter Knight in a way that really put the songs he wasa involved in over the top. This is especially so in the final cut Calling Occupants the Carpenters sound could not get any bigger production wise and I am not sure too many songs in any genera could get bigger maybe louder but not bigger. Passage show alot of guts and showed progression in the Carpenters music. As I said I loved MIA the song selection was good and the record worked especially if you liked the traditional Carpenters sound and approach to record making. I have been told that after the shelving of Karens solo record she was not enthusiatic about recording another Carpenters record and I can't help but to hear hints of this in the MIA record. Karen would never disappoint but I feel this was her weakest effort of all her records she recorded the voice was still there and still good but not as good as her previous work. After hearing the solo record later and seeing where Karen was going as the 1980's approached I admit I was disappointed that Richard did not build on that and instead took a step back. As far as song selection and the records as a whole Passage and MIA are close in ranking with Passage winning out only because it was more inovative and adventurous than MIA. Thats the E story!

[ps11932]

While I can't actually compare the two since I don't possess "Passage" and haven't heard it in its entirety, I very much like "Made In America"; for quite a while it was my favorite collection, though since surpassed by "Horizon" and the solo album among others. I have always thought that there was a good style variety on "Made In America" and I find "When You've Got What It Takes" to be one of the most inspirational Carpenter songs of all.

[cinscorp]

Apr 20, 2008 12:55:30 GMT -5 Rick Henry said:

I've always been a firm believer that a great album should open strong and close strong. MIA opens with "Those Good Old Dreams", which is a good song (a pretty good song), but it's not a great song. Then MIA closes with "Beechwood"... a less than inspiring end for any album. On the overall lacked the verve, energy and originality to inspire people to want to buy the record, even more than half of their die-hard fans skipped out on buying MIA.
too bad that the Carpenters' last album together was not a masterpiece.

Definitely "Passage". The experimentation, the risks, the production. "Passage" is my 2nd favorite to "Horizon". I agree with Rick that "Made In America" was a step backward. Safe. Too Safe. It's pretty but somewhat boring to me in that I don't sense the passion in it I feel with other recordings.

Rick, actually MIA closes with "Because We Are In Love"..."Beechwood" is 2nd to last. But your point stands. I think "Because We Are In Love" is too much a niche song to be a strong closer. Would've been better as a side one closer.

[beaner]

Although Passage was certainly a different style for most of their songs like "Calling Occupants" and "Don't Cry For Me Argentina", etc. I really didn't care for a lot of them but "Two Sides" is probably my favorite.

However, I prefer Made In America. I'm simply recollect how much more often I used to listen to MIA even though Passage was out longer. I just liked it that much more.

MIA for me!

[Rick Henry]

May 14, 2009 22:05:42 GMT -5 cinscorp said:

Apr 20, 2008 12:55:30 GMT -5 Rick Henry said:

I've always been a firm believer that a great album should open strong and close strong. MIA opens with "Those Good Old Dreams", which is a good song (a pretty good song), but it's not a great song. Then MIA closes with "Beechwood"... a less than inspiring end for any album. On the overall lacked the verve, energy and originality to inspire people to want to buy the record, even more than half of their die-hard fans skipped out on buying MIA.
too bad that the Carpenters' last album together was not a masterpiece.

Definitely "Passage". The experimentation, the risks, the production. "Passage" is my 2nd favorite to "Horizon". I agree with Rick that "Made In America" was a step backward. Safe. Too Safe. It's pretty but somewhat boring to me in that I don't sense the passion in it I feel with other recordings.

Rick, actually MIA closes with "Because We Are In Love"..."Beechwood" is 2nd to last. But your point stands. I think "Because We Are In Love" is too much a niche song to be a strong closer. Would've been better as a side one closer.

You are right Cinscorp... "Made In America" closes with "Because We Are In Love". Still the same effect... "Because We Are In Love" is a nice sentimental song... but doesn't go much further than that. It is not a grandiose closing to the album. I've always found Karen's vocal on BWAIL to be strained in some areas... especially the higher ranges - definitely not one of Karen's better vocal performances. The song itself doesn't really go anywhere... it's long, somewhat dull and just does not muster up much excitement or thrill... lacks the "chill factor".

"Made In America" is not by any means a horrible album... but it is a disappointment as at this point in time Carpenters had so much experience and money backing them up that they should have recorded and released a true classic. A classic with 12 excellent songs on par with "Solitaire", "Two Sides", "This Masquerade", "B'wana She No Home". Instead what we got was an album in which Karen Carpenter seemed to only be going through the motions... her heart was clearly not into this project as her vocals just did not contain that punch and verve as on her solo album or previous Carpenters albums and the songs themselves were at best filler material. Even "Touch Me When Were Dancing" was just an okay song. And than there's the album cover... as much as I love Carpenters I just do not like the cover for "Made In America"... that cover singlehandedly put their image right back into the "cheesy" category... just not good.

Not one song on "Made In America" truly contains the "chill factor". Why does this bother me so much... because there was a perfectly outstanding album ready to go and it was quashed... most likely because of fear and jealousy... of course that is Karen's solo album. Karen's solo album was very strong and would have changed the course of the Carpenters' popularity. It would have put them right into the "in" factor. They would have had three excellent releases in a row... "Passage" (which was loved by the critics), "Christmas Portrait" (a seasonal classic) and Karen's solo album (which would have turned heads and garnered many new fans).

Playing it safe during a time when tastes and fashions were changing rapidly proved to be a miss for the Carpenters. But, I still feel that had Karen lived they would have regained their former glory by the mid 80's (maybe by 1986) and would have recorded more truly fantastic music. They just took a wrong turn with "Made In America" pretty much on all accounts... but everyone is entitled to make a few wrong turns in life.

[enigma]

I will say this on MIA no its not Horizon or the solo record yes it lacks the adventurous spirit of Passage. As Far a chill factor Passage is not any better in that regard both albums only create the chill factor with a few tracks yes Rick MIA does have a few chill songs not like the early work but still have the chil factor. True some die hard Carpenter Fans may have passed this record over but like yourself they were probably disappointed in what was expected versus what they got as an album much like A Kind Of Hush did. As you know I like MIA and clearly I do defend the record but I will admit its not the best Carpenters record and gave Passage an edge I certainly do not consider Passage vastly superior to MIA they are pretty close as far as albums I like from the Carpenters. I am not saying your opinion is wrong Rick but I feel that we must hear from one of the few people who liked MIA to balance the opinions on the record I feel all the negativity surrounding MIA (an you are far from alone Rick) is a little unwarrented not its not a masterpiece and yes it is considered a low point to end the Carpenters "official" album releases but it really was not all that bad a record. Just my thoughts.

[cinscorp]

May 16, 2009 7:07:25 GMT -5 enigma said:

I will say this on MIA no its not Horizon or the solo record yes it lacks the adventurous spirit of Passage. As Far a chill factor Passage is not any better in that regard both albums only create the chill factor with a few tracks yes Rick MIA does have a few chill songs not like the early work but still have the chil factor. True some die hard Carpenter Fans may have passed this record over but like yourself they were probably disappointed in what was expected versus what they got as an album much like A Kind Of Hush did. As you know I like MIA and clearly I do defend the record but I will admit its not the best Carpenters record and gave Passage an edge I certainly do not consider Passage vastly superior to MIA they are pretty close as far as albums I like from the Carpenters. I am not saying your opinion is wrong Rick but I feel that we must hear from one of the few people who liked MIA to balance the opinions on the record I feel all the negativity surrounding MIA (an you are far from alone Rick) is a little unwarrented not its not a masterpiece and yes it is considered a low point to end the Carpenters "official" album releases but it really was not all that bad a record. Just my thoughts.

While Made in America is less exciting for me, I do like it. As I said, it's pretty. You make some points here that I would agree with, too. I think expectations of the record were probably set high. After all, to many it had to be "4 years in the making". How long is "MIA"? I have records from the 80s which had 6 songs on each side. MIA has 5 on each side and is another fairly short album. After the hiatus, just adding 2 more tracks to the album would have helped I think. It also would "compensate" for including the 3 year old "I Believe You" which pretty much bombed as a single. Personally, I think the songs are just weaker. I've heard a lot of praise towards "Strength of a Woman", and while there are ways I like the song, I can't help listening to it and not thinking..."what is the woman in this song thinking? I'm a doormat? I put up with my husband cheating all the time because he has needs and he's a man?" This song sounds like June Cleaver, not a smart and independent woman. I hated Karen singing these words. "When You've Got What It Takes" is a good song, I just think Richard way over sweetened the production on it. My favorite tracks on MIA are "Back in My Life Again" and "When It's Gone". "Touch Me When We're Dancing" is good, and a lot of people list it as a favorite. I'd pick it 3rd. I used to chat with a Carpenters fan out of state and MIA was his favorite. We'd argue back and forth comparing "Horizon" (My fave) against "MIA" (his). LOL.

[Rick Henry]

May 16, 2009 7:07:25 GMT -5 enigma said:

I will say this on MIA no its not Horizon or the solo record yes it lacks the adventurous spirit of Passage. As Far a chill factor Passage is not any better in that regard both albums only create the chill factor with a few tracks yes Rick MIA does have a few chill songs not like the early work but still have the chil factor. True some die hard Carpenter Fans may have passed this record over but like yourself they were probably disappointed in what was expected versus what they got as an album much like A Kind Of Hush did. As you know I like MIA and clearly I do defend the record but I will admit its not the best Carpenters record and gave Passage an edge I certainly do not consider Passage vastly superior to MIA they are pretty close as far as albums I like from the Carpenters. I am not saying your opinion is wrong Rick but I feel that we must hear from one of the few people who liked MIA to balance the opinions on the record I feel all the negativity surrounding MIA (an you are far from alone Rick) is a little unwarrented not its not a masterpiece and yes it is considered a low point to end the Carpenters "official" album releases but it really was not all that bad a record. Just my thoughts.

Personally, I do feel "Passage" is far superior to "Made In America". In my own taste of music I like every singe track from "Passage" while I am only lukewarm to every track on "Made In America". OKay, so maybe I am only lukewarm to "Man Smart, Woman Smarter"... but even that one I like better than the best on MIA.

On the "chill factor" issue, I truly do not hear it on any songs from MIA... certainly not "Because We Are In Love"... nice song... but when Karen's vocal gets too high and has hints of strain it takes away any chill that may have started and turns it into shrill. Then the song just falls flat about mid way through as it's just too long and doesn't really have much verve to keep the listener interested... of course the die-hard fan may find the song perfect... but listen to it with the mindset of someone who is not a die-hard fan and you may get a completely different view of the song... get one of your friends who is generally not a fan of the genre to listen to this song... and see the response... I can assure you the same person will give "I Just Fall In Love Again" a far better response.

Somebody's Been Lyin'" and "I Believe You" are the only other two songs from MIA which may contain the chill factor... but I myself just do not get it from those songs. Both nice, both well done. But neither reach the same pinnacle as "Two Sides" or "Don't Cry for Me Argentina".

Again, I do not think MIA is a failure of an album. but, I do feel that it is their weakest studio album. I also feel it's a letdown for a (supposed) comeback album.

But just to give some kudos to the album my favorite tracks are "Those Good Old Dreams", I like the country music feel to it and the slightly upbeat rhythm. I actually like this song more than "Top Of The World", but not more than "Sweet Sweet Smile". "Sweet Smile" is my favorite of the Carpenters' country flavored tunes. Like cinscorp I also like "(Want You) Back In My Life Again". I like it's upbeat happy sort of feel, it's not an ultimate favorite overall, but on MIA it's a favorite. I also like "Beechwood 4-5789", as a single it was a poor choice (but than again MIA just did not have much worthy of single release). I like the guitar solo in "Beechwood"... although much more prefer "Postman".

My biggest complaint about MIA (and you all know this) is that Richard Carpenter pretty much dogged Karen's solo album and "Made In America" is what he came up with. For that alone I do not care for MIA. It's a personal thing that I need to get over.

Before Karen's solo album was ever released I never had such strong feelings against MIA. After hearing her solo album and coming to find that it was actually a fantastic, daring and extremely well produced recording. I am pretty upset by the fact that for all these years we were lead to believe that it was a sub-par work. That's what really gets me. I think it is so wrong.