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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 30, 2007 10:43:46 GMT -5
 Yesterday I went visiting my local Virgin Megastore. I love that store because there is a large variety of CD's, DVD's, books and so forth. On this visit I went intentionally to purchase the newest DVD released by David Gilmour from Pink Floyd. It's a beautiful double disc set including songs from his 2006 album called "On An Island". "On An Island" is full of beautifully textured smooth flowing songs with intricately clear and easy going vocals. The album reached #6 in the U.S. and #1 in many countries around the world. After I found the DVD I took a look at a few books. One that caught my eye was called 1001 Greatest Songs of All-Time. Of course I went straight to the index to see if Carpenters had any songs listed. They did. It was only one... I could tell as there was only one page number after their name in the index. Before I got to their page I was curious as to which Carpenters song would be considered one of the 1001 greatest songs of all-time. I thought possibly "We've Only Just Begun". When I finally got the the page I was somewhat relieved to see that it wasn't "We've Only Just Begun". Don't get me wrong I love WOJB tremendously... but I would have found it "cliche" to see that one listed as one of the greatest songs of all-time. Though, WOJB is a great song and is actually quite relevant... there are others which are much more relevant to the general public and pack a stronger emotional punch... and contain that dark rich deep vocal of Karen's which so many people adore. I was pleasantly surprised to see that the Carpenters song listed in this book was "Superstar". I felt "Superstar" certainly deserves this distinction for many reasons. As stated above it contains that wonder deep rich and dark vocal performance which so many people love... that's one of the reasons the album "Horizon" has become a favorite in the past ten years... people are discovering that it's filled with Karen's darkest and most intricate vocals. Then there's the lyric of a female groupie in love with her "rock and roll" star. How many kids nowadays have a crush on a rock star? Or really how many kids in the last 50-60 years have had a crush on a rock star. People can relate to the lyric in the song. Then there's Richard's arrangement... this is sheer musical perfection. It's a dark and mysterious sounding song. It would have won the Grammy Award for best arrangement had it not been for Paul McCartney's "Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey". And then finally it was written by Leon Russell. Leon Russell has a high "coolness" factor. People all across the musical spectrum have a great admiration for Leon Russell (Paul Williams does also - but Leon Russell is quite a bit more universally respected all across the board). In the end I was very happy to see that such a fantastic song is going down in the annals of time as one of the all-time greats. This isn't the first time I've seen "Superstar" listed as an all-time great song... and most likely won't be the last time. |
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Post by smoothie2 on Sept 30, 2007 13:50:48 GMT -5
Very good find Rick. I had no idea what song it would be, but I'm glad it went down as Superstar. It is a timeless treasure. I recall when Superstar came out on the radio. I was about 13 and the words seemed to fit my thoughts at that time not s about a rock star, but my first big crush on a guy 5 yrs. older than me. He was just part of a group of church kids then and I don't think he knew that the girls my age especially fell for him.
In any case, the impact of S-star has always been strong and I'm glad they chose that one.
The David Gilmour cd sounds like a good one. Even tho I don't agree with the message of Pink Floyd's "We Don't Need No Education"...I like that song. That's the only song that comes to mind of Pink Floyd.
 I know other artists have sung and recorded Superstar, but of course, all I'm familiar with, (and probably would only be most happy with) is the Carps. version.
"Long ago and oh so far away, I fell in love with you before the second show".... and then the 2 low piano notes that seem to fall and stop...
those words as sung especially by Karen, once again just hook the listener. A real classic. 
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Post by enigma on Sept 30, 2007 14:25:05 GMT -5
As you know Rick this is no surprise to me though the fact that this book affirms what I have felt about this song is pleasantly surprising in a way. The song is my number one or two carpenters song since I first heard it and that wont likely change and though I am generally not swayed by lists or critics its nice to know others see in this song simular things that I do, It really is a pop and vocal masterpiece and belongs on any list of best songs of all time. Its still hard to believe that this was Karens first take on the song she sang it once or only needed to sing it once and bingo instant masterpiece talk about a naturally gifted vocalist!   |
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Post by wisejester7 on Sept 30, 2007 19:34:32 GMT -5
Rick, who compiled the charts for the book?
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 30, 2007 20:00:07 GMT -5
The David Gilmour cd sounds like a good one. Even tho I don't agree with the message of Pink Floyd's "We Don't Need No Education"...I like that song. That's the only song that comes to mind of Pink Floyd.
Of course I must comment on your comment Smoothie. In the song Roger Watwers (the songwriter) is not saying that he feels we do not need education. He's actually saying quite the opposite. In the line "we don't need to no education" the song's Roger Waters has used a double negative. Hence cancelling out both negatives. Okay, let me put this is terms easier to understand. In the line "we don't need no education", Roger Waters is stating that it is "no education" which we don't need. He is making a comment on the stance of schooling back in the earliest days of the Cold War. The Cold War began in 1947 and was a period of conflict and tension between the U.S. and Russia. Many countries were involved including Germany. Schooling in some nations, during that time, was fraught with dictatorship and forms of mind control. Children in the classrooms were subject to all sorts of mental abuse from their teachers and the establishment of the education system. Roger Waters began school n the U.K. in 1948 and to a slight degree experienced some of this - but not to the degree as other nations did. "Another Brick In The Wall" was also in the book of 1001 Greatest Songs and is also one of the world's most analyzed songs of all-time. Following are a few essays written on the song: The line "We don't need no education" is grammatically incorrect. It's a double negative and really means "We need education." This could be a commentary on the quality of the schools.  "we don't need no education...."
there's a double negative there! are they just using incorrect English to make a point, or are they really saying that only through knowledge (transposing DON'T need NO education to its opposite) can we triumph over the government and other authoritative figures that stand between us and our ideal life? This song is not about not needing an academic education. The kind of education that the song is attacking is the indoctrination of ideas into children in schools. This was especially true during the cold war which this album is about. The most important line in this song is not "We don't need no education" but is "We don't need no thought control." This line clearly distinguishes this as indoctrination. During the cold war children living in the capitalist powers where taught to hate any other ideology without being allowed to come up with their own opinions on government and economics. From a young age they were told that communism was evil and because children can be easily convinced of things without solid evidence it was thought control. THis was the education Pink Floyd was attacking in this song. This song and the entire album attacks the policies of the western powers. The thought control in this song resulted in the fascist state of mind that Pink grew to have. Pink didn't exactly go insane but was always destined to become like a fascist because of the events in his childhood and the influences of others. Teachers, his mother, his lover and others all created a man that was blind to what was right and wrong, what should be acceptable and what shouldn't be, and what the world really was. The wall represents the barriers between Pink and truth in the sense of what was really happening and what he should do. All of Pink's experiences and influences through his life that caused him to slowly lose touch with the real world created the wall so they were just bricks in the wall. This means that individually the events did not have enough influence over Pink to really change his life but over time they collectively changed his outlook and opinions on life. His education was something that he rebelled against but was unable to overcome and in the end he turned into exactly what his teachers were trying to make him. This reluctance of immediately doing what he was told is a continuing theme on the album but until outside the wall he could not overcome the negative influences in his life because he simply didn't know any better. The ignorance of not knowing the evils of the fascist views that he would embrace on the second disc was clearly demonstrated in "stop" in the line "Have i been guilty all this time." Pink could not see reality because of the opinions and outlooks he was taught and learned from his life experiences and the people who greatly influenced him. This song like the rest of the album is attacking the policies of the western powers, showing the dangers, and the possible outcomes of such policies. Of course this is only one interpretation of the sound and album but i think it was a major political point that was being made by Roger Waters.
- Paul, Baltimore, MD
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 30, 2007 20:10:17 GMT -5
Rick, who compiled the charts for the book? Oddly enough at that moment I did not put it to memory... I was with a group of friends at the time and my complete attention was not into every aspect of the book. The book is not a chart as the songs are not numbered from 1 to 1001. It is a collection of 1001 chosen by a rock music critic or by several critics and evaluated for their longevity and relevance to the listening public. Like Enigma I am not swayed by a critic's viewpoint... although "Superstar" does seem to garner it's share of accolades. |
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Post by smoothie2 on Sept 30, 2007 22:06:48 GMT -5
The David Gilmour cd sounds like a good one. Even tho I don't agree with the message of Pink Floyd's "We Don't Need No Education"...I like that song. That's the only song that comes to mind of Pink Floyd.
Of course I must comment on your comment Smoothie. In the song Roger Watwers (the songwriter) is not saying that he feels we do not need education. He's actually saying quite the opposite. In the line "we don't need to no education" the song's Roger Waters has used a double negative. Hence cancelling out both negatives. Okay, let me put this is terms easier to understand. In the line "we don't need no education", Roger Waters is stating that it is "no education" which we don't need. He is making a comment on the stance of schooling back in the earliest days of the Cold War. The Cold War began in 1947 and was a period of conflict and tension between the U.S. and Russia. many countries were involved including Germany. Schooling in many of the communist nations was fraught with dictatorship and forms of mind control. children in the classrooms were subject to all sort of mental abuse from their teachers and the establishment of the education system. Roger Waters began school n the U.K. in 1948 and to a slight degree experienced some of this - but not to the degree as communist nations did. "Another Brick In The Wall" was also in the book of 1001 Greatest Songs and is also one of the world's most analyzed songs of all-time. Following are a few essays wriiten on the song: The line "We don't need no education" is grammatically incorrect. It's a double negative and really means "We need education." This could be a commentary on the quality of the schools. "we don't need no education...."
there's a double negative there! are they just using incorrect English to make a point, or are they really saying that only through knowledge (transposing DON'T need NO education to its opposite) can we triumph over the government and other authoritative figures that stand between us and our ideal life? This song is not about not needing an academic education. The kind of education that the song is attacking is the indoctrination of ideas into children in schools. This was especially true during the cold war which this album is about. The most important line in this song is not "We don't need no education" but is "We don't need no thought control." This line clearly distinguishes this as indoctrination. During the cold war children living in the capitalist powers where taught to hate any other ideology without being allowed to come up with their own opinions on government and economics. From a young age they were told that communism was evil and because children can be easily convinced of things without solid evidence it was thought control. THis was the education Pink Floyd was attacking in this song. This song and the entire album attacks the policies of the western powers. The thought control in this song resulted in the fascist state of mind that Pink grew to have. Pink didn't exactly go insane but was always destined to become like a fascist because of the events in his childhood and the influences of others. Teachers, his mother, his lover and others all created a man that was blind to what was right and wrong, what should be acceptable and what shouldn't be, and what the world really was. The wall represents the barriers between Pink and truth in the sense of what was really happening and what he should do. All of Pink's experiences and influences through his life that caused him to slowly lose touch with the real world created the wall so they were just bricks in the wall. This means that individually the events did not have enough influence over Pink to really change his life but over time they collectively changed his outlook and opinions on life. His education was something that he rebelled against but was unable to overcome and in the end he turned into exactly what his teachers were trying to make him. This reluctance of immediately doing what he was told is a continuing theme on the album but until outside the wall he could not overcome the negative influences in his life because he simply didn't know any better. The ignorance of not knowing the evils of the fascist views that he would embrace on the second disc was clearly demonstrated in "stop" in the line "Have i been guilty all this time." Pink could not see reality because of the opinions and outlooks he was taught and learned from his life experiences and the people who greatly influenced him. This song like the rest of the album is attacking the policies of the western powers, showing the dangers, and the possible outcomes of such policies. Of course this is only one interpretation of the sound and album but i think it was a major political point that was being made by Roger Waters.
- Paul, Baltimore, MD
I had no idea that that is the message. I understand now. thanks for the info. Extraordinary. I appreciate your time and effort for the explanation. |
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 1, 2007 8:21:27 GMT -5
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Post by Ming on Oct 1, 2007 11:16:41 GMT -5
It is great that they have chosen 'Superstar'. I think 'Superstar' can really attract people's attention. Karen did a great job on 'Superstar'.  Ming |
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Oct 4, 2007 21:46:52 GMT -5
A couple of comments on this thread - First of all, great news about Superstar being listed in the 1001 greatest hits. I have recently gone back to listen closely to this gem - and it IS quite a lovely, lovely song. Karen emotes such feeling when singing it, I do think this was one of her better reads, and I feel they were all outstanding. There is something a bit special about Superstar, however. About Pink Floyd - Katt, I missed Pink Floyd as Rick knows, in their hey day - when they were really popular, I was listening to Billy Joel and Carpenters almost exclusively. I thought Pink Floyd was a silly name, and how could anything good come from them. Boy - teaches me the old saying is right - never NEVER judge a proverbial book by its cover. Wow, David Gilmour and Roger Waters were incredibly talented men, who wrote both of these albums that were (I don't know the correct term) but "stories" if you will. I mean, The Wall is amazing - and it takes a lot of listens to "get it" really. It did for me, because of things like we discovered here with the double negative - we don't need no education. It helps to watch this in movie form, which is sort of, well, not so "lovely" in places, but it really brings the story of The Wall into terms one can more readily understand. Bob Geldorf (remember the guy who orchestrated getting everyone together for We Are The World?) - he plays the main role in the movie....and The Wall tells quite a story. Just as another of Pink Floyd's "concept albums" - yeah, that's what I was trying to think of - the other concept album being Darkside of the Moon. Both of these are really satire-filled, but intelligently done, and well done. The music is the icing on the cake- it's done well. Very well. I'm sort of glad that I didn't know about Pink Floyd in their day - because about 15 years ago when I really get "into " them, I spent a lot of time on their music, listening, disecting, enjoying. It's good stuff, no question. Rick has often mentioned that one of his favorite live concerts was Pink Floyd, and I can understand why. I have the video of The Wall done in concert...and their laser light show is really stupendous, on top of the wonderful story, and music. Well worth renting, listening carefully to, and watching!! |
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