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Post by wisejester7 on Jun 18, 2007 17:59:42 GMT -5
I was just thinking today about the Carpenters ... Karen ... and Richard. We all know what the Carpenters achieved and the heights they rose to together.
After Karen died Richard was 'alone', his professional partner was gone. A couple of years passed before Richard came from under the shadow of what was and tried to forge ahead with his career. The result was "Time". "Time" was not well received/embraced by the public. It seems somehow empty and unfulfilled. The what if's of Karen's personality and talent are noticeably absent.
This is the part where I realized something. Something that I have known all along, but a something which remained firmly in the background of my mind. Richard is a singer! He admits to not having the voice or command of a lead singer. But consider this, Richard is one half of the best selling American group of the 1970's. That means he sang background and tight harmonies almost daily with someone I consider the best singer of her generation. Not too shabby!
So in regards to Richard's singing I thought it important to give him the proper respect he deserves.
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Post by beaner on Jun 18, 2007 19:08:24 GMT -5
HEAR, HEAR!!!
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 18, 2007 20:44:30 GMT -5
[pre-note]: Don't cha just HATE it when you've almost all but completed posting a great LONG post in a thread that took you a while to get your wording right on, and something happens where you LOSE the whole darned thing? That JUST happened to me, and I'm a bit irritated - okay....a LOT irritated. Here I go, again. Take TWO: *takes deep breath* Wisejester7 - a fabulous topic. A wonderful observation. Beaner agrees with you, as do I.....there have, from time-to-time, been topics about Richard on this board. The last one I recall ended up in a section we used to have that was, actually, password protected entitled "Too Hot to Handle" and I have not seen that board in a while, so me thinks it's not in existence any more. But, the topic of Richard seems, sometimes, to be a "sticky" one, if you will, especially when Richard's abilities and Karen's are placed side-by-side....Therefore, a caveat from the start - I apologize to anyone who may disagree with me....you are of course entirely entitled to state your opinion whatever that might be, and do not worry if it differs from mine....I understand completely that my opinion and that of others may very well differ...and that's what makes this ole world go round, eh? Richard...interesting person to ponder, I think. When you talk about Richard being a singer, you're absolutely right. When you talk about him not being a lead singer, you are spot-on, again, however, I like the album "Time." His backups are outstanding , and his pitch is perfect every single time. I have, from time-to-time on this forum, indicated I think Richard is a genius. There are many reasons for my thinking this - his ability to score music, in the right keys, with great tempos, and arrange strings, and instruments that are Bb instruments, not C instruments, etc., and his scoring of the multi-layered vocals, plus writing the music, and deciding on whether or not he'd written a ballad or an up-tempo tune...(sometimes those things change in the process), and, and, and...you get my drift here, I think. I have always admired Richard's abilities at the choral multi-layering technique that "defines" the "sound" of Carpenters, in my mind. (I'm not taking anything away from Karen's solo voice - that's a separate issue at this juncture - we're dicsussing Richard here, okay?) - so, having said that - that multi-layered choral overdubbing when I hear it shouts Carpenters to me. THIS IS NOT AN EASY THING TO DO - And, I'm finding that out more and more each day. Frankly, I did think this was much easier than it actually is - I say that because it sounds like it would be simple to put the structure of the chord together to make those phenomenal backing vocals (which Richard did very well). Bit more of a chore in actuality than it seems it might be. As I work on recording here in my own studio with my multitracker, I'm of course attempting to do overdubbing, myself. It's me doing all the singing...and I've done that before - no big deal, right? WAY, WAY WRONG. Let's take, for example, some seemingly simple backing ooo's in three parts. Piece of cake, right? I thought so too, but that isn't necessarily the case, especially if one is working with ONLY one or perhaps two voices, because there are limitations to the voices of many in terms of range, tonal quality, etc. So, one must then know how to move that chord not only for the singer who's gotta sing it, but for the sound you want it to have....say for example, as the ooo's are being sung, and as the chord movement goes along, where the 3rd is on the bottom, the 5th in the middle, and the root of the chord is on the top of the stack (are you with me?) - but during the movement, it must change for continuity, and to go with the "tone" of the song.....so, the 3rd has to move to the middle, the root takes the bottom, and the 5th is on top. Of course, that's working with 3 parts, and one must know HOW that sounds best. It may sound easy even with something you know relatively well, but I have not found it to be so. My point is, Richard did it flawlessly. His multi-layered choral overdub arrangements, which he himeslf has indicated have been done up to a max (I believe) of 64 voices between he and Karen....not working only with root, third and fifth, but adding 7th's and 13th's - augmented chords and diminished chords, and well, you name it, and I think they did it at one point or another. (and Karen certainly did a lot of that in her solo album at the pen of Rod Temperton).....One must know the flow of those backing notes, be they ooos, aaaahs or actual words....to know how that chord best "flows" with the song - and doesn't either create a hole somewhere in the fabric, or embellish it way too much in one place or another, and make it lumpy. I find I'm rambling now, because I'm trying so desperately to be sure the reader gets my point. I hope you do, and if not, please ask me to try and explain it in a different way. Richards voice was meant for backup work, and he is a quite good singer, indeed! He has such immense musicality about him - not just book smarts, and not just the rudaments - Richard KNOWS music and how it comes across sounding good. It's the sound I like - that's what, after all, I listen for. He was so adept at making this whole thing "gel". I do like his album Time - too bad it didn't do so well, but I think I know why. There are some fun tunes on there, and some good love songs, but musically, it hit the mark for me....expert harmonies, carried out and "sung" expertly, too. Right! I should stop at this point, I think. I was just so excited to see this thread. Oftentimes, I think Richard goes bit more unrecognized than he should...not so much as the other half of the most popular duo of the 70's - but as the musician/mastermind that he is. Thanks for allowing me to express my opinion so candidly, guys and gals. Tim |
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Post by smoothie2 on Aug 17, 2007 23:43:23 GMT -5
  WOW Tim...very good description...even I pretty much understand what you're talking about... I guess I didn't know til recently reading it through here somewhere that Richard has a lisp, nonetheless, yes, I'll always give him a lotta thanks and respect and for all he did for the C's, and thereon what he continues to do musically. As gifted as he is, he'll always have that magic touch.
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Post by Ming on Aug 18, 2007 11:01:13 GMT -5
I think it is because Karen's voice is perfect and she did most of the singing, many people doesn't notice that Richard can sing too.  Ming |
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Post by wisejester7 on Aug 18, 2007 11:42:21 GMT -5
I think it is because Karen's voice is perfect and she did most of the singing, many people doesn't notice that Richard can sing too. Ming A very good point, Ming. Vocally Karen throws a huge shadow. It is easy for Richard to be overlooked when KC sings...unless they are harmonizing or changing leads back and forth. |
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Post by smoothie2 on Aug 18, 2007 17:47:34 GMT -5
I think it is because Karen's voice is perfect and she did most of the singing, many people doesn't notice that Richard can sing too. Ming ???Indeed, a great point Ming.I guess it's one of those things that perhaps we basically have known, but to really think it out is interesting. |
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Post by ps11932 on Aug 19, 2007 13:59:12 GMT -5
This is a very good topic of discussion (thanks, WJ) and good points made by Ming (when working with Karen, very few singers would get much attention) and a great summary by Tim- indeed, Richard is a genius. Though as an arranger, especially, and instrumentalist he shines the most, his singing is quality, in my book. While parts of "Come Together" sound a bit off, I think "What's The Use" is great- almost to the point where I hardly notice the background vocals. Other superb singing efforts are "Another Song", "Druscilla Penny" and "Piano Picker."
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Post by ps11932 on Aug 19, 2007 18:34:19 GMT -5
Oops- I meant "I Kept On Loving You", not "Another Song"
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Post by enigma on Aug 20, 2007 17:13:36 GMT -5
Of course I do not agree that Richard is a genious but I do agree that he is an interesting person to ponder. There are times when I completely agree with Richards views and times like the whole solo record thing as well as other times when I totally disagree with Richards actions and statements. I suppose that makes him a rather interesting person to discuss. Since this is about Richards voice not his arranging and since Tim said it so well about Richards arranging (I do agree with what you said there Tim) I will concentrate on my views on Richards voice. I have always liked groups and duos where there is more than one lead singer I like the different vocal styles I get rather bored listening to the same singer song after song album after album. I obviously love Karens voice it is the greatest ever but I like Richards voice coming on to give me a break from Karen and allow me to catch my breath so to speak especially when listening to some of Karens more emotionally intense recordings. Now a comment about the lisp thing yes Richard has a lisp but believe it or not so does Karen its not near a noticeable but it is there just listen to For All We Know and other songs you may have to listen harder but it is there and I have no problem with Richards lisp its part of his vocal style it makes it his own unique style. Richard sings well and I like his singing yes maybe Karen could do a better job on the songs he sings but I honestly can't imagine Karen singing on the song Richard does lead on he chose those songs well to suit his own vocal style. Remember Offering is my second favorite record To Horizon and Richard sings on half this record. Later when Richard decided to not do any leads on Carpenter records I missed the odd song that featured him on lead. As for his solo career it just was not the same I do not feel the quality was there of his Carpenter productions for some reason it was more than the void of Karen not being their the production and arranging just were not as good on his solo records in my opinion.  |
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Aug 20, 2007 19:48:41 GMT -5
 Some excellent points here, E., and I agree that I have heard Karen's own set of "interesting nuances" like the way she rolls her R's.....I haven't picked-up on the lisp in her voice, but it wouldn't surprise me. I think that runs in families. And they were so close, how could it not have rubbed off on her a bit.? I have nothing against that lisp, either, and I'm with you in that when he was singing Carpenters related material, he did take that feature of his voice into consideration more, I'm afraid, than he did as a solo artist. That is where I really find it to be more pronounced. But, you made some valid points - and it's always good to know what you have to say. It's just great to hear from you, E. Best, Tim
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Post by Rick Henry on Aug 20, 2007 22:05:29 GMT -5
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Post by wisejester7 on Aug 21, 2007 7:11:06 GMT -5
I missed Richard's singing in the later albums. I thought his voice was a nice change from Karen's. It was like hearing the 'male' point of view in the songs.
Karen and Richard complimented each other so well. The occasional song where Richard sang lead was very welcome.
I also liked it when Karen and Richard would switch off the lead in the same song . . . i.e. "We've Only Just Begun", "Walk On By", etc.
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Post by BethMosior on Aug 28, 2007 22:47:32 GMT -5
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