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1981
May 25, 2007 1:33:01 GMT -5
Post by Rick Henry on May 25, 2007 1:33:01 GMT -5
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1981
May 25, 2007 7:37:14 GMT -5
Post by enigma on May 25, 2007 7:37:14 GMT -5
wow I love Karen but she looks real sick in this photo not the way I want to remember her. I accept what she was dealing with but prefer to remember her in her healthier times. No offence she's still Karen but...
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1981
May 25, 2007 8:05:17 GMT -5
Post by wisejester7 on May 25, 2007 8:05:17 GMT -5
I agree with enigma here. There is still some sparkle in Karen's eyes, but (as we now know) she was very near the end of her long battle with her eating disorder. : (
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1981
May 25, 2007 10:41:41 GMT -5
Post by Rick Henry on May 25, 2007 10:41:41 GMT -5
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1981
May 30, 2007 0:13:13 GMT -5
Post by smoothie2 on May 30, 2007 0:13:13 GMT -5
Indeed, I surely agree..a real tragedy..I admire her for having "the show must go on"attitude..although, such pressure and abuse was tremendous and was her downfall. She should have taken time off and gotten away from all that and she should have sought help much earlier than she did...her voice remained the same which is a marvel in itself. Every video clip no matter what stage in her life she was in, she always delivered her best.
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1981
May 30, 2007 9:24:10 GMT -5
Post by wisejester7 on May 30, 2007 9:24:10 GMT -5
Indeed, I surely agree..a real tragedy..I admire her for having "the show go on"...although, such pressure and abuse was tremendous and was her downfall. She should have taken time off and gotten away from all that and she should have sought help much earlier than she did...her voice remained the same which is a marvel in itself. Every video clip no matter what stage in her life she was in, she always delivered her best. Karen was a genuine trooper.
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1981
May 30, 2007 11:01:16 GMT -5
Post by Rick Henry on May 30, 2007 11:01:16 GMT -5
Indeed, I surely agree..a real tragedy..I admire her for having "the show go on"...although, such pressure and abuse was tremendous and was her downfall. She should have taken time off and gotten away from all that and she should have sought help much earlier than she did...her voice remained the same which is a marvel in itself. Every video clip no matter what stage in her life she was in, she always delivered her best. Karen was a genuine trooper. True Karen was a genuine trooper. Though, I ask this question (and I know I'll get some flack for this); was it in her best interest to have been such a trooper? She should have taken time off and gotten away from all that and she should have sought help much earlier than she did...her voice remained the same which is a marvel in itself.
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1981
May 30, 2007 12:01:11 GMT -5
Post by enigma on May 30, 2007 12:01:11 GMT -5
Was it in Karens best interest to be such a trooper? I feel that no it was not especially with regards to her ED her determination not to seek help or slow down was a big contributer to her overall decline. I cannot say that killed her but it left her in such a weakened state that any tip in her body's balance was fatal whether it be a weight gain or chemical change. She really should have took Richards countless attempts to get her to take time off more seriously and took the time off. Karen really never did that and even when hospitalised did not take the required amount of time to recover. Karen always said she was alright but she never really was. This show must go on, trooper attitude really did Karen in in the end. As for her voice deteriorating over time it had to deteriorate the rest of Karen was deteriorating so her voice must have be affected to a degree. Karen probably took care of her voice the best during this time because she knew she needed it to work and she also was a perfectionist especially when it came to her voice. I beleive if there was one thing Karen would not allow to deteriorate it was her voice. Karens voice was still good during the later years but think of how it would be if she was healthy it would be that much better. When you have such a great voice even when its weaker its still a great voice. Just some thoughts.
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1981
May 30, 2007 17:25:14 GMT -5
Post by wisejester7 on May 30, 2007 17:25:14 GMT -5
Some of the best troopers can win the battle, but lose the war.
Karen's ability to push herself even when she didn't want to go was probably necessary in the heavy touring days. Unfortunately, when her body gave her signs and signals to slow down or to just plain stop for a while she relegated those feelings to a lower priority status.
For Karen, the trooper bit went too far for too long without the needed maintenance being given its due.
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makapipi
CERTIFIED GOLD MEMBER
Posts: 172
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1981
May 31, 2007 0:43:21 GMT -5
Post by makapipi on May 31, 2007 0:43:21 GMT -5
She must have a lot of passion for singing and recording and that probably kept her going.
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1981
May 31, 2007 11:35:49 GMT -5
Post by YesterdayOnceMore on May 31, 2007 11:35:49 GMT -5
I'm with the rest of you in that I believe Karen did push herself (she WAS a proverbial "trooper") and that was NOT a good thing for her, but it was because she was so sick, in part, that she continued to push. As long as she was pushing, there was NO TIME to worry about her eating disorder. There was only time for her work - and she could brush everyone's comments aside about how unhealthy she appeared. We, the recipients, are fortunate in that Karen's voice was probably one of the last things to deterriorate as badly as other parts of her body did, as she continued to sing some beautiful music. Richard has always said no matter what, Karen was "right on" with her voice, and it never was affected, but I have to agree with Rick, Enigma, and all that it was. How could it NOT be? The photo, well....I, too, don't like looking at these photos of a very ill Karen. I never liked that particular "do" on her - and it just accentuates, in my mind, the depth of the delima she was in. So sad. But as you mentioned, Rick - these photos remind us this is what / who Karen was towards the end of her life, like it or not. This is a part of her life. It's very scary to me.
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1981
May 31, 2007 22:01:33 GMT -5
Post by Rick Henry on May 31, 2007 22:01:33 GMT -5
I'm with the rest of you in that I believe Karen did push herself (she WAS a proverbial "trooper") and that was NOT a good thing for her, but it was because she was so sick, in part, that she continued to push. As long as she was pushing, there was NO TIME to worry about her eating disorder. There was only time for her work - and she could brush everyone's comments aside about how unhealthy she appeared. We, the recipients, are fortunate in that Karen's voice was probably one of the last things to deterriorate as badly as other parts of her body did, as she continued to sing some beautiful music. Richard has always said no matter what, Karen was "right on" with her voice, and it never was affected, but I have to agree with Rick, Enigma, and all that it was. How could it NOT be? The photo, well....I, too, don't like looking at these photos of a very ill Karen. I never liked that particular "do" on her - and it just accentuates, in my mind, the depth of the delima she was in. So sad. But as you mentioned, Rick - these photos remind us this is what / who Karen was towards the end of her life, like it or not. This is a part of her life. It's very scary to me. Tim... outstanding and honest assessment of what is being said in this thread. Getting to the voice first. Now saying that Karen's voice deteriorated somewhat is not to say that her voice was poor. Even toward the very end her voice still maintained a clarity and honesty in voice. The soul was definitely still there. It's the boldness and range of depth which seemed to become limited. take a good close listen to "Now" and "Tryin' To Get The Feeling" back to back and there is certainly a difference in her voice. Again, that's not to say that "Now" is a bad song - as it is a perfectly fine song. As for Karen being the proverbial "trooper" I really like what you had to say Tim. That was exactly what I was thinking - that as long as Karen kept busy - than she didn't have to face her problems. In essence she was hiding from herself. This may be a bit blunt - but maybe she didn't like herself - this is very sad. But, I wonder what it was that made Karen punish herself as she did. I don't think she even really realized just how severe this was - or maybe she did. Many have theorized that there is much more to the story than what was in the movie and the book. Being a trooper wasn't the best thing for Karen - we know that - and if it came between having that fantastic solo album or having her with us now - I would vote for having her - because by now we would have probably had something like three solo albums or more. My message to you my friends... It is so important to love yourself unconditionally. For example in the past three years I've put on some weight - at my height I was 203 pounds standing at 5 foot 10. 203 wasn't all that bad - but I knew that I wanted to lose some weight. So, I've been working on it for the past five and a half months. I've lost ten pounds - and want to lose another ten pounds - and that will be all I lose. 183 will be a good weight for me to be at. Now, this is where the lesson comes. even at 203 pounds - with little pockets of fat under the arms and especially around the waist - and really no way to hide it - I still loved my body. Never once have I ever thought that I look horrible or ugly - I will not go there. I care about myself too much to ever see myself as ugly. I'm not saying that I'm always perfect in my thoughts. I do have days when I get a little down - but when I feel my thought patterns going that way - I nix it right away. I do not let myself dwell in that dark spot - it's not worth it - it's a waste of time. There are much better places for our minds to dwell. I find songs like "Jambalaya", ""Happy", "Boat To Sail", "Sweet Sweet Smile", "Top Of The World" are great pick me up tunes. Anyway what I'm saying is that it starts with love - pure and unconditional love no matter what - love yourself - no matter what.
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Dave
Ultra Emissary
"sleeping in the arms of the cosmos..."
Posts: 1,515
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1981
Jun 1, 2007 5:26:30 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Jun 1, 2007 5:26:30 GMT -5
"My message to you my friends... It is so important to love yourself unconditionally."
Truer words were never spoken, Rick. But speaking from age 51 and 250 lbs, I will tell you that unless you want to be as much an exercise addict as Karen was, you're gonna gain weight as you get older.
I passed 200 at age 40, and crept up to 250 in my 50th year. But at 6'4", I can carry it well, and unless you look at me from the side I really don't look fat. I was all of 150 when I took my draft physical in 1973, and it took all these years to fill in.
Eat healthy, exercise reasonably, and you'll still gain weight. It's a part of life.
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1981
Jun 1, 2007 11:22:17 GMT -5
Post by GoodOldDreams on Jun 1, 2007 11:22:17 GMT -5
Wow! I know what you guys are saying! While it is better than dying young, growing older and coping with the physiological changes that one undergoes are not for the faint-of-heart.
In my high school's 10th year reunion, while many women were blossoming into their good looks, I noticed that many of the former male athletes in our class had already started to look middle-aged with thinning hair and spreading paunches.
For the most of my life I have managed to stay fairly lean without much special effort, and have often been mistakened for being an avid runner. However, for the last year I have noticed that it is beginning to be more of a challenge to do so.
Some years back I came across a book that showed photos of some "beautiful" people in their heydays and what they look like now decades later. Many of them went from exquisite and stunning (who would have commanded more than just a second look) to unremarkably plain and ordinary looking.
If we are so conditioned to judge ourselves by how young, thin and physically attractive we are to others, can we even begin to imagine the magnitude of the pressure that a public figure constantly in the limelight such as Karen would feel in trying to achieve her goals?
... I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world and fool enough to think that's what I'll find...
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Dave
Ultra Emissary
"sleeping in the arms of the cosmos..."
Posts: 1,515
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1981
Jun 2, 2007 7:12:24 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Jun 2, 2007 7:12:24 GMT -5
There is a crossover between the laws of anorexia and the laws of physics.
Rick's observation: "...her lower voice (the basement voice) isn't quite a rich and full-bodied..." is something I've noticed as well, but believed that it was my imagination. But why would that happen?
As anorexia progresses, once the body has consumed all of the available fat, it begins to consume muscle. Vocal cords are not immune to this process, and they would have begun to lose mass, becoming thinner as time progressed. Thicker vocal cords, like guitar strings, have a naturally lower resonant frequency. She was simply no longer able to reach that lower register.
I will leave you with this thought, however. For the sake of "what if", let's suppose that she had successfully reversed things, and brought her weight up to around 150 or so. That weight would have been distributed throughout her body, and her vocal cords would have had more thickness. I believe that the result of that would have been to make it far easier to access her lower chest-voice register, and smoothed her voice out even beyond what we know.
None of you may know this, but Beth actually sent Karen a letter back in the day pleading with her to stop...and for that, I tip my hat to you, Beth. The rest of us never knew...
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1981
Jun 2, 2007 10:28:19 GMT -5
Post by Rick Henry on Jun 2, 2007 10:28:19 GMT -5
There is a crossover between the laws of anorexia and the laws of physics. Rick's observation: "...her lower voice (the basement voice) isn't quite a rich and full-bodied..." is something I've noticed as well, but believed that it was my imagination. But why would that happen? As anorexia progresses, once the body has consumed all of the available fat, it begins to consume muscle. Vocal cords are not immune to this process, and they would have begun to lose mass, becoming thinner as time progressed. Thicker vocal cords, like guitar strings, have a naturally lower resonant frequency. She was simply no longer able to reach that lower register. I will leave you with this thought, however. For the sake of "what if", let's suppose that she had successfully reversed things, and brought her weight up to around 150 or so. That weight would have been distributed throughout her body, and her vocal cords would have had more thickness. I believe that the result of that would have been to make it far easier to access her lower chest-voice register, and smoothed her voice out even beyond what we know. None of you may know this, but Beth actually sent Karen a letter back in the day pleading with her to stop...and for that, I tip my hat to you, Beth. The rest of us never knew...
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1981
Jun 18, 2007 21:12:25 GMT -5
Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 18, 2007 21:12:25 GMT -5
Rick, Dave and Dreams: YAY - I'm not alone here in the 'struggle' to maintain my weight. Nope, I'm not way overweight, but living too sedentary of a lifestyle, that's for sure. I just don't MOVE as much as I should. That is changing, slowly but surely - doing more walking, and I too am losing a bit of the extra poundage that has found its way to my body. Nope, I don't think it's the end of the world, but I'm a short dude, and an extra 10 lbs on me can really go a long way - cause we all know where it goes first - right to the waistline. Ugh! So, slowly, I'm beginning to see it come back off, and that makes me feel better - not ABOUT myself, it's not about that - it's just physically feeling better, and of course, it's nice when one can "comfortably" fit in one's clothes. Seriously, when my suits, my pants, and even my shirts begin to be uncomfortable, it's time to do something about making oneself comfy once again....shedding a few pounds in a sensible way is a good thing to do - I'm just happy I'm not the only one feeling that same way about it!!! Thanks, guys. Tim
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1981
Jun 18, 2007 21:30:55 GMT -5
Post by Rick Henry on Jun 18, 2007 21:30:55 GMT -5
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