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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 29, 2006 21:37:37 GMT -5
Hey all... let's get a good Carpenters related topic going...
We all know Carpenters had a continuous string of top 12 hits from 1970 to 1976. Though which Carpenters single do you think should have done better.
If you are stumped here is a list of Carpenters singles which peaked outside the top 20:
*note this is according to the U.S. Billboard chart
1969 Ticket To Ride #54
1976 I Need To Be In Love #25
1976 Goofus #56
1977 All You Get From Love Is A Love Song #35
1977 Calling Occupants Of Interplanetary Craft #32
1978 Sweet Sweet Smile #44
1978 I Believe You #68
1981 (Want You) Back In My Life Again #72
1981 Those Good Old Dreams #63
1982 Beechwood 4-5789 #74
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 29, 2006 22:31:10 GMT -5
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Post by smoothie2 on Jun 29, 2006 23:25:03 GMT -5
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Post by enigma on Jun 30, 2006 7:55:15 GMT -5
Here are my picks though most of the songs listed deserved top 20 showings and never did for so many reasons outside the quality and strength of the songs which were very good for all the songs listed. 1976 I Need To Be In Love #25 I feel this is a well done well sung and emotional ballad strong enough for a top 10 at least 1977 All You Get From Love Is A Love Song #35 I felt this was a nice pop record that also should have made the top 10. Its a good song worthy of a top 10 placing. 1978 Sweet Sweet Smile #44 1981 Those Good Old Dreams #63 The above 2 are good country flavored songs that should have been crossover hits like so many Kenny Rogers, Dolly Parton, Ann Murrey etc songs were at the time if those artists could break the top 10 on numerous occassions there is no reason why the two songs above could not hve charted high on both charts especially Sweet Sweet Smile which did so well on the country charts   |
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Post by Federico Cruz on Jun 30, 2006 9:14:19 GMT -5
Think that a re-release in single of the 1973 version of Ticket To Ride, in 1973 or 1974, could be a good idea.
It never were favorites of mine INTBIL, AYGFLIALS, COOIC, SSS, IBY, WYBIMLA nor TOGD, but they are cute songs, no GREAT songs.
The version of Sweet, Sweet Smile in the video-karaoke "A Video Biography" is so far better than the "official" release. I LOVE that version.
About Goofus and Beechwood 4-5789, I always skip them when I listen A Kind Of Hush or Made In America albums. Sorry.
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Post by GoodOldDreams on Jun 30, 2006 9:40:58 GMT -5
For me, it's a toss-up between Those Good Old Dreams and All You Get From Love is A Love Song. With its catchy rhythm, Those Good Old Dreams is even more appealing to me than the similarly bright, country-tinged Top of the World, originally an album cut that Richard made into a single by the overwhelming popular demand of fans. With its exotic, jazzy rhythm and bold background vocals, All You Get From Love is A Love Song has a wonderful "breakout sound" in the experimental, adventurous spirit of the "Passage" album.
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Post by Rick Henry on Jun 30, 2006 10:50:05 GMT -5
"Goofus" - this was my favorite song on "A KInd Of Hush" at the time. I was one of those fans who wrote to the fan club saying I thought this should be a single. Sure enough they released it and the first time I heard it on the radio I just knew this song would not be a hit. Something about hearing it on the radio brought a different viewpoint about it's hit potential.
"All You Get From Love Is A Love Song", when I first heard this song, I was thrilled. I thought this song will bring Carpenters back into the top 10. The song was a step into the right direction with a new upbeat modern sound. This song should have been top ten.
When "Calling Occupants" was released I knew the song would not be a big hit. I love the song - but it was not hit single material. They should have released "I Just Fall In Love Again" instead.
Next we come to "Sweet, Sweet Smile" - I thought for sure this one will do it. This song will bring Carpenters back into the top 10. It received several favorable reviews from radio disc jockeys at first but it only reached #44. Although the song did reach #6 on the country music charts.
After "Sweet Sweet Smile" the rest of the Carpenters' output, I feel, declined somewhat in relevance to the music listening public(not in quality - as all Carpenters music was quality). I've always felt they should have kept on with what they tried to accomplish with "Passage", I really feel a new sound for Carpenters would have caught on.
Just out of curiousity, what is everyone's thoughts on this last statement I made concerning the relevancy of Carpenters music after "Sweet Sweet Smile"? |
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Post by Federico Cruz on Jun 30, 2006 15:52:06 GMT -5
Think Karen should have released her solo album with sounds according with the disco music of the times.
After her first sigle cut "My Body Keeps Changing My Mind":
"Karen Carpenter goes solo?, what?" ,"Making disco music?, What?".
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jun 30, 2006 20:13:21 GMT -5
 Rick, this is a very interesting question you pose, and I do want to add my two cents. I'd never really thought about it, but you're absolutely right, I think. I remember hearing All You Get on the radio over and over and over, but honestly, I never heard Carpenters on the radio much after that. If I did, it was to hear something like "Begun" or Close To You - but nothing new. In fact, I don't ever remember hearing Carpenters sing Sweet Sweet Smile, or any of the others on the radio. I only heard them through my stereo. So, at this point, I would have to agree 100% that the listening public, or at least the radio stations, stopped paying much heed to Carpenters past a certain point. I was like you in that I was so excited when All You Get From Love came out - and I do remember that it seemed to get an emmense amount of air time - they literally played it repeatedly here in Springfield on every station, by that time AM and FM - but none of the others do I remember. Interesting. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. Best, Tim
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Post by Prisoner_Walking on Jul 1, 2006 5:44:20 GMT -5
Hi Guys.
I have often thought about this - the decline of the Carpenters career - and wondered whether they would have ever truly come back had Karen survived. It is so hard to tell.
They had a respectable #9 chart position with "Calling Occupants" in the UK - "I Need To Be In Love" got to #38 (I think) and "Sweet Sweet Smile" #40. I don't think any singles from "Made In America" were released over here.
"Singles 69-73" was such a massive album here (#1 for 16 weeks), followed by "Horizon" which did well, and then the Carpenters sound did not seem so fresh anymore - and disco was massive. The Carpenters were kind of past their sell-by date at that time. I guess, what with their personal problems, it was an awkward time for them - should they have gone with the times and recorded disco, or gone back to basics and recorded the edgier, jazzier songs they churned out earlier on? Either way, I just don't think that the public wanted to hear the more sacharrine, lusher, show-song-esque recordings they moved towards with "Made In America"...
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Post by enigma on Jul 1, 2006 9:26:47 GMT -5
After "Sweet Sweet Smile" the rest of the Carpenters' output, I feel, declined somewhat in relevance to the music listening public(not in quality - as all Carpenters music was quality). I've always felt they should have kept on with what they tried to accomplish with "Passage", I really feel a new sound for Carpenters would have caught on. Just out of curiousity, what is everyone's thoughts on this last statement I made concerning the relevancy of Carpenters music after "Sweet Sweet Smile"? [/b] [/center][/quote] Though not a popular view it has been my contention that Richards reaction to Karens solo record was a reflection of his lack of flexability and vision when it came to the Carpenters music. He was willing to allow the Carpenters music to evolve and grow but in the confinements of his musical vision which I felt was rigid and not open to a great deal of change. I liked the later Carpenters efforts but they were for the most part out of touch with the musical scene after 1975/76 and while the early material got away with going against what was popular due to its quality and good song selection once the song selection and quality in the arrangememnts started to slip due to fatigue they needed a shot in the arm, to reinvent themselves, and that never happened. I felt the Carpenters music got stale and people got tired of them as they often do with an artist unless that artist can reinvent themselves and change with the times. Richard produced his way and could not or was unwilling produce any other way so I feel they really needed a new producer with some new ideas like a Phil Ramone. Had Richard even tried to build on what Phil and Karen were doing on her solo record meld his vision with what Phil and Karens was on the solo record it would have been much better instead he gave us MIA which was good but for the most part still out of touch with the music scene. Had Karen lived it was very possible the Carpenters career could have been reveived but the would have had to have done it with a new producer and or a much more flexible Richard it would have been possible. Hope I did not go too far off topic here.  |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jul 1, 2006 9:34:24 GMT -5
Hi Guys. I have often thought about this - the decline of the Carpenters career - and wondered whether they would have ever truly come back had Karen survived. It is so hard to tell. They had a respectable #9 chart position with "Calling Occupants" in the UK - "I Need To Be In Love" got to #38 (I think) and "Sweet Sweet Smile" #40. I don't think any singles from "Made In America" were released over here. "Singles 69-73" was such a massive album here (#1 for 16 weeks), followed by "Horizon" which did well, and then the Carpenters sound did not seem so fresh anymore - and disco was massive. The Carpenters were kind of past their sell-by date at that time. I guess, what with their personal problems, it was an awkward time for them - should they have gone with the times and recorded disco, or gone back to basics and recorded the edgier, jazzier songs they churned out earlier on? Either way, I just don't think that the public wanted to hear the more sacharrine, lusher, show-song-esque recordings they moved towards with "Made In America"... Prisoner_Walking... you bring up so many valid points here - and you weren't even old enough to listen to the radio when this was happening.
First, "Horizon" did better than well in the UK, it was #1 for (I believe it was) five weeks.
I totally agree the music listening public just was not into, as you put it, the sacharrine sounds of "Made In America". I never really understood why they released MIA as it was - especially after Karen had finished recording (her solo album) which was so obviously in tune with what was going on in 1979-80. Karen had it right on the mark with her primarily easy jazz album. What she recorded was very similar to what Al Jarreau was successful with at that time period. Karen had a good ear for keeping up with what is hot. I truly feel Karen would have had a few hits with this one - maybe "If I Had You", "Making Love In The Afternoon" and "Guess I Just Lost My Head". But A&M did it backwards - they shelved the album that was relevant to the times and released the one which really was not what the public wanted - including many Carpenters fans.
I do feel had Karen lived the Carpenters would have experienced a comeback- probably sometime around 1985-86. If you've heard Richard's solo album "Time" - you would probably agree with me on this one. "Time" is musically right on the mark for what was going on in the mid-late 80's. All "Time" needed was a great lead vocalist - such as Karen. |
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Dave
Ultra Emissary 
"sleeping in the arms of the cosmos..."
Posts: 1,515
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Post by Dave on Jul 1, 2006 21:27:22 GMT -5
It gets difficult to determine whether a musical group, artist, or act would remain popular over time. On his "Don't Shoot Me, I'm Only The Piano Player" album, Elton sings a song titled "I'm Gonna Be A Teenage Idol". But even he found it tough sledding. Heck, even Elvis was on his way to becoming a parody of himself. Why does this happen? Here's my opinion...
Music is the backdrop to our lives. When we hear a song, and if a group is popular enough, we think of a certain time. For instance, the Beatles and Beach Boys defined the Sixties. The Seventies are a bit tougher, because they began with "bubblegum" and ended with disco.
We heard "I Know I Need To Be In Love", but we weren't listening, because it was disco's time. By the time "Touch Me When We're Dancing" came out, the Seventies were long gone, and the Carpenters were just part of that decade...the first five years. You can try to reinvent youself, as the Monkees did with "That Was Then, This Is Now", but once you start playing county fairs for free and your fans only remember what you did 30 years ago, it's time to pack it in and call it a career, or, like Carlos Santana, find a synergistic relationship with someone old enough to be your granddaughter.
Entertainment is ALWAYS looking for fresh meat, sorry to say. A 30+ year-old Karen vs. Madonna, Whitney Houston, Gloria Estafan, Laura Brannigan, Cyndi Lauper, Mariah Carey? Richard would have had to realize that his vast orchestrations no longer were being received well by the next generation of record buyers, and change his M.O.
As Karen proved on her solo album, if the material was there, she could sing it.
But we become anachronisms, whether we admit it to ourselves or not. We belong to a certain time frame.
The good ones help to define it, as did the Carpenters.
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Post by Rick Henry on Jul 1, 2006 22:13:59 GMT -5
So much to comment back on. Before I go on I want to say that in my thoughts here I am not putting down the album "Made In America". True, it's may not be the Carpenters' strongest album - but at the same point it's a fine album. Musically it's solid and the vocals as always are superb. And to go further, Karen's vocal is outstanding on some of the songs. Such as her performance on "Strength Of A Woman" is intense. As, I mentioned this conversation is not about bagging MIA, but a recount of public opinion at that time. And simply the public fell out of love with the Carpenters. If any comments I make seem harse please do not take it that way. I am really just trying to say it the way the music public saw it at that time period. Or maybe I should say this is my interpretation of what I observed from the music listening public at the time. Rick, this is a very interesting question you pose, and I do want to add my two cents. I'd never really thought about it, but you're absolutely right, I think. I remember hearing All You Get on the radio over and over and over, but honestly, I never heard Carpenters on the radio much after that. If I did, it was to hear something like "Begun" or Close To You - but nothing new. In fact, I don't ever remember hearing Carpenters sing Sweet Sweet Smile, or any of the others on the radio. I only heard them through my stereo. So, at this point, I would have to agree 100% that the listening public, or at least the radio stations, stopped paying much heed to Carpenters past a certain point. I was like you in that I was so excited when All You Get From Love came out - and I do remember that it seemed to get an emmense amount of air time - they literally played it repeatedly here in Springfield on every station, by that time AM and FM - but none of the others do I remember. Interesting. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. Best, Tim Tim, I remember "All You Get From..." being played quite a bit here in Orange County, CA. DJ's were predicting this song would be the hit the Carpenters needed to revive their career. But sadly the song fizzled out somewhere around it's sixth or seventh week on the top 100.
Here in Southern California Carpenters singles after "All You Get From..." got a good amount of airplay. "Calling Occupants..." received even more play here than "All You Get..." received. "Occupants" was a top ten hit in So. Cal. "Sweet Sweet Smile" also got a good amount of airplay - primarily on the country music charts. "I Believe You" (which is one of my personal favorites) received a minimal amount of play - but I did here it on the radio a few time in a two week span. "Touch Me When We're Dancing" was the last Carpenters record I remember receiving any radio airplay - and even that was very little. I think I heard this one only when the American Top 40 was played. Though not a popular view it has been my contention that Richards reaction to Karens solo record was a reflection of his lack of flexability and vision when it came to the Carpenters music. He was willing to allow the Carpenters music to evolve and grow but in the confinements of his musical vision which I felt was rigid and not open to a great deal of change. I liked the later Carpenters efforts but they were for the most part out of touch with the musical scene after 1975/76 and while the early material got away with going against what was popular due to its quality and good song selection once the song selection and quality in the arrangememnts started to slip due to fatigue they needed a shot in the arm, to reinvent themselves, and that never happened. I felt the Carpenters music got stale and people got tired of them as they often do with an artist unless that artist can reinvent themselves and change with the times. Richard produced his way and could not or was unwilling produce any other way so I feel they really needed a new producer with some new ideas like a Phil Ramone. Had Richard even tried to build on what Phil and Karen were doing on her solo record meld his vision with what Phil and Karens was on the solo record it would have been much better instead he gave us MIA which was good but for the most part still out of touch with the music scene. Had Karen lived it was very possible the Carpenters career could have been reveived but the would have had to have done it with a new producer and or a much more flexible Richard it would have been possible. Hope I did not go too far off topic here. Some excellent thoughts Enigma -we can always count on you to see the flip side of the coin.
You are right this is not a popular view with Carpenters fans - but I feel there is some creedence in what you have to say. I agree that Richard somewhat held back. but, I also feel A&M had something to do with holding the Carpenters back from moving into the next generation. Karen obviously wanted to follow the dance-pop craze which was so hugely popular for the likes of Olvia Newton-John and Kim Carnes. Karen would have been even more successful as she's a much stronger vocalist. But, A&M for some reason felt they should play it safe with the Carpenters. After all the Carpenters had been A&M's meal ticket for over ten years - why mess with it now. But that very attitude is one of the reason the Carpenters' popularity slipped even further.
Again this is only speculation but had A&M let Karen Carpenter solo be released I think it would have certainly shocked people and caught people's attention. Than after the shock (or novelty of it) wears off people would have realized that the music really is hot. With Billy Joel's band backing Karen it was hot. And Billy Joel was super big in 1979-80 when KC solo would have been released. And certainly, regardless of what has been said I do hear at least three strong contenders for "hit single" status on KC solo. Now", but once you start playing county fairs for free and your fans only remember what you did 30 years ago, it's time to pack it in and call it a career, or, like Carlos Santana, find a synergistic relationship with someone old enough to be your granddaughter. Interesting thoughts Dave... Karen Carpenter (had she lived) was to good to ever fall into oblivion like that. Karen may have had a lull for about five or six years but she would have always been able to make a big comeback. I think Karen would still be releasing new material on a regular every other year basis and still manage to make a sizeable hit every few years or so. Karen may have even sang a few movie themes. Karen was that good. Just like Barbra Streisand - Karen would have remained quite popular and produtvie to this day - but than again this is all only speculation - though I feel my speculation may hold some creedence - just in seeing how popular Karen has remained almost 25 years after her death. The entire Carpenters catalog still sells quite well throughout the entire world. That can not be said for many others who were popular in and around the 70's and early 80's.
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Dave
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"sleeping in the arms of the cosmos..."
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Post by Dave on Jul 2, 2006 21:02:06 GMT -5
Yeah, but you know, we're all operating on the assumption that her voice wouldn't change as she grew older. Neil Diamond's voice changed drastically in the Eighties, so much so that it took him two songs to get "warmed up". But he still put on a whale of a show.
What *would* she be doing if she was still here with us? Probably devoting most of her time to eliminating eating disorders, I suppose. Maybe still recording? Good question. Stevie Nicks doesn't record anymore, although she has toured a bit with Don Henley, and Grace Slick gave it up entirely.
Music today is being dominated by those who are "chosen" via TV shows like "American Idol". Richsrd doesn't like those shows, and I agree with him. Back in the day, critics panned the Monkees as being the "Pre-Fab Four", a reference to them having been created by Madison Avenue for the sole purpose of revenue generation, and as a ripoff of the Beatles.
We've had this discussion before, and we're at somewhat opposite poles. You like to think that she (with or without Richard) would've continued to be popular, while I prefer to think that sometime in the mid-Eighties they would've concentrated on their families, perhaps recording a Christmas album or three between then and now. Could they have stepped out and recorded with the Trans-Siberian Orchestra?
Maybe that's another question for "Fans Ask"...
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Post by Rick Henry on Jul 2, 2006 23:14:09 GMT -5
Yeah, but you know, we're all operating on the assumption that her voice wouldn't change as she grew older. Neil Diamond's voice changed drastically in the Eighties, so much so that it took him two songs to get "warmed up". But he still put on a whale of a show. We've had this discussion before, and we're at somewhat opposite poles. You like to think that she (with or without Richard) would've continued to be popular, while I prefer to think that sometime in the mid-Eighties they would've concentrated on their families.
As for me "liking" to think that Karen would continue to be popular - well I think history and the reality of it all speaks for itself. Karen Carpenter is still hugely popular throughout the world - regardless of the fact that she has been dead for 25 years. It's not that I would "like" to think it would be that way - but it is that way - Karen Carpenter (Carpenters) still sell something like 3 - 4 million albums a year every year - and it's not just the Christmas music - it's the entire catalog of Carpenters (and Karen Carpenter) releases. That is extremely good for a group who hasn't recorded in over 25 years. Can you imagine how much Carpenters (Karen Carpenter) would be selling right now had they been recording all these years. I'd guestimate an average of 6 to 7 million albums a year.
I truly feel Karen would still be recording to this day - she was just too popular - still is. She'd be like Nancy Wilson or Ella Fitzgerald - who have recorded well into their senior years. Karen's voice most likely would still be pristine to this day - as Karen was obsessive about protecting her vocal chords. I believe one of the reasons Neil Diamond's voice has changed - or become more rough is due to cigarette smoking and not taking proper care of the vocal chords. |
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Jul 2, 2006 23:22:37 GMT -5
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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2006 6:14:29 GMT -5
Yes I too must agree. I would think Karen may slow down the pace of her recording to make room for a family life as would Richard but there is no way she would ever quit. Another strong piece of evidence to support this idea in addition to her maintained popularity and demand by fans and fellow musicians alike is the fact that Richard had asked Karen to take a break from recording to recharge her batteries and seek help as she steadily refused to do so even the people around her asked her to take a vacation and she would not do it. When Richard suggested to end the Carpenters in the late 70s Karen said no and when Richard took time off to enter rehab Karen would not; she bugged him until he OKed Karen working on a solo record. This tells me Karen had a strong drive to record and make music and would never retire or quit making it. She seemed to be someone who got bored easily and would not be content to not be making music with or without Richard. No I do not feel its wishful thinking Karens popularity accompanied by her drive would ensure she continue to record but Dave I do think Karen and Richard would certainly slow down and make room for a family life of some sort after all it was one of Karens dreams to marry and raise a family. As for Karens voice yes it would change with age but it would still be great look at Barbara Streisand or as Rick said Ella fitzgerald they have/had good voices well into their later years so it is possible to keep your voice good in an artisats later career and Karen would be no exception. Just my thoughts. |
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