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Post by GoodOldDreams on Nov 28, 2005 16:00:06 GMT -5
One of the main objections some detractors have leveled against the Carpenters' music has been their "goody-two-shoes" and toothy "Pepsodent Twins" image. However, one only needs to look at the sources of some of the Carpenters' materials to understand how some darker and more progressive issues were really at the heart of their work.
I have three songs to illustrate this point, all of which happen to be associated with cinematic/theatrical productions.
The first example is "For All We Know" from the 1970 movie "Lovers and Other Strangers," based on a play of the same name. Roger Ebert described the movie as follows:
"At the center are the newlyweds, who've been shacked up for a year (each with an imaginary roommate who mysteriously fails to appear at the ceremony). Now they've decided, with appropriate solemnity and tenderness, to make it official.
...Their love is young, simple, uncluttered and the nearest thing we get in the movie to pure love, whatever that may be. Life is not so simple, however, for the various couples, singles and triangular configurations surrounding the bride and groom...
The movie's method is to compare the uncomplicated love of the newlyweds with all of the compromises and deceptions, some loving, some otherwise, of everyone else in the story. This might have been an opening for a good deal of cynicism, but the movie is optimistic at heart. Not optimistic that love can survive unchanged throughout a lifetime, but that love and lovers can occasionally reach an accommodation that is not positively painful..."
When the theme "For All We Know" comes on (sung by a male vocalist in the movie), there seems to be a fairly well-balanced understanding of love in both its pragmatic and idealistic manifestations: "Love, look at the two of us --- strangers in many ways..."
Like "We've Only Just Begun" and "Because We are in Love," Karen imbues this wedding song with warmth, hope, sincerity, and more maturity than naïveté. (Interestingly, the Carpenters performed this song at the White House when West German chancellor Willy Brandt visited Richard Nixon there in 1973. The lyrics take on a new set of meanings in terms of establishing trust and camaraderie between the countries: "... look at the two of us ... strangers in many ways ... we've got a lifetime to share ... so much to say ... let's take a lifetime to say 'I knew you well' ... and love may grow for all we know.")
The second example is "Bless the Beasts and Children" from the 1971 movie (based on the 1970 book) of the same name. This movie was not rated, but was noted for "violence, questionable content for children and adult language."
The New York Times described the movie as follows:
"The film itself is a well-meaning if heavy-handed tale of six idealistic young boys whom come to the rescue of a buffalo herd. There's a symbiotic relationship between the boys and the beasts: the kids have all been shunted aside as misfits and losers, while the buffalo have likewise been targeted for obscurity."
This movie contrasts the battered innocence and principled deeds of the young and troubled (and sometimes foul-mouthed) protagonists against the bigotry, jadedness, shallowness and hypocrisy of the adult world.
(Side note: I like the Carpenters' version of "Bless the Beasts and Children" on the "A Song for You" album better than the movie soundtrack version, as the piano accompaniment has a clearer resonance.)
The final example is "Don't Cry for Me Argentina" from the musical "Evita." Eva Perón (a.k.a. "Evita") is succinctly described on Garth Wangemann's website as follows:
"Evita, she has been called sleeper, feminist, tyrant and saint. Evita was the beautiful, legendary woman who rose from poverty to become the hypnotically powerful First Lady of Argentina. To millions of poor people she was a savior. To her enemies she was a monstrous dictator. Eva Perón became the driving spirit guiding the lives of many millions and dominating the politics of a nation for over 30 years---twenty-one of them after her death."
Karen takes command in her tender, yet bold, rendition of the pivotal aria. There was even some talk about Karen, not shying away from this controversial figure, playing in a full-length production of "Evita."
The origins of these songs performed by the Carpenters attest to the depth and complexity of the subjects that may have been missed at first glance by fans and critics alike. As the central characters originally associated with these songs are more flaw-flecked than pure, there are no overly simplistic, clear-cut distinctions between the good, the bad and the ugly. When the Carpenters' music begins to play in their original contexts, one may be startled to see --- and hear --- the stark beauty that still exists despite the many human frailties portrayed in this imperfect world.
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Dave
Ultra Emissary 
"sleeping in the arms of the cosmos..."
Posts: 1,515
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Post by Dave on Nov 28, 2005 21:03:52 GMT -5
Dreams, you don't even have to go into as much detail as you have...although as an amateur historian I'll tip my hat to your research.
Ths simple truth is that when the Carpenters became popular, the primary vehicle was Top 40 AM radio, propelled as always by teenage girls. Karen was someone they could identify with, and I doubt very much if any listener EVER heard their parents' holler "Turn that down (or off!)!" Heck, their parents sang along with them.
If you look at common playlists from popular AM stations from 1970 through 1975, you'll see that the Carpenters shared space on the same stations with artists like Elvis, Johnny Cash, Elton John, Jimi Hendrix, Alice Cooper, John Denver, Black Sabbath, and Pink Floyd. I was 15 in 1970, and since radio was my intended vocation, I listened and studied.
I never made it into radio, other than amateur radio, by the way.
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Post by Rick Henry on Nov 28, 2005 22:43:19 GMT -5
One of the main objections some detractors have leveled against the Carpenters' music has been their "goody-two-shoes" and toothy "Pepsodent Twins" image. However, one only needs to look at the sources of some of the Carpenters' materials to understand how some darker and more progressive issues were really at the heart of their work. I have three songs to illustrate this point, all of which happen to be associated with cinematic/theatrical productions. The first example is "For All We Know" from the 1970 movie "Lovers and Other Strangers," based on a play of the same name. Roger Ebert described the movie as follows:
"At the center are the newlyweds, who've been shacked up for a year (each with an imaginary roommate who mysteriously fails to appear at the ceremony). Now they've decided, with appropriate solemnity and tenderness, to make it official.
...Their love is young, simple, uncluttered and the nearest thing we get in the movie to pure love, whatever that may be. Life is not so simple, however, for the various couples, singles and triangular configurations surrounding the bride and groom...
The movie's method is to compare the uncomplicated love of the newlyweds with all of the compromises and deceptions, some loving, some otherwise, of everyone else in the story. This might have been an opening for a good deal of cynicism, but the movie is optimistic at heart. Not optimistic that love can survive unchanged throughout a lifetime, but that love and lovers can occasionally reach an accommodation that is not positively painful..."
When the theme "For All We Know" comes on (sung by a male vocalist in the movie), there seems to be a fairly well-balanced understanding of love in both its pragmatic and idealistic manifestations: "Love, look at the two of us --- strangers in many ways..." Like "We've Only Just Begun" and "Because We are in Love," Karen imbues this wedding song with warmth, hope, sincerity, and more maturity that naïveté. The second example is "Bless the Beasts and Children" from the 1971 movie (based on the 1970 book) of the same name. This movie was not rated, but was noted for "violence, questionable content for children and adult language." The New York Times described the movie as follows:
"The film itself is a well-meaning if heavy-handed tale of six idealistic young boys whom come to the rescue of a buffalo herd. There's a symbiotic relationship between the boys and the beasts: the kids have all been shunted aside as misfits and losers, while the buffalo have likewise been targeted for obscurity."
This movie contrasts the battered innocence and principled deeds of the young and troubled (and sometimes foul-mouthed) protagonists against the bigotry, jadedness, shallowness and hypocrisy of the adult world. (Side note: I like the Carpenters' version of "Bless the Beasts and Children" on the "A Song for You" album better than the movie soundtrack version, as the piano accompaniment has a clearer resonance.) The final example is "Don't Cry for Me Argentina" from the musical "Evita." Eva Perón (a.k.a. "Evita") is succinctly described on Garth Wangemann's website as follows:
"Evita, she has been called sleeper, feminist, tyrant and saint. Evita was the beautiful, legendary woman who rose from poverty to become the hypnotically powerful First Lady of Argentina. To millions of poor people she was a savior. To her enemies she was a monstrous dictator. Eva Perón became the driving spirit guiding the lives of many millions and dominating the politics of a nation for over 30 years---twenty-one of them after her death."
Karen takes command in her tender, yet bold, rendition of the pivotal aria. There was even some talk about Karen, not shying away from this controversial figure, playing in a full-length production of "Evita." The origins of these songs performed by the Carpenters attest to the depth and complexity of the subjects that may have been missed at first glance by fans and critics alike. As the central characters originally associated with these songs are more flaw-flecked than pure, there are no overly simplistic, clear-cut distinctions between the good, the bad and the ugly. When the Carpenters' music begins to play in their original contexts, one may be startled to see --- and hear --- the stark beauty that still exists despite the many human frailties portrayed in this imperfect world. Thank you GoodOldDreams for the informative post. I really enjoyed reading this.
You are so right the Carpenters' music was much deeper than a lot of critics and and even casual listeners realize. Their music wasn't just "fluff". I will admit some of it is "fluff" - but it's "fluff" in the highest form. Even songs like "Sing" have a deeper meaning. "Sing" as simplisitc as it seems boasts a very important and powerful message. Songs like "Rainy Days And Mondays" and "This Masquerade" have to be two of the darkest and soulful songs in pop music history. In my mind Carpenters' music had a great amount of relevance and substance to it.
Dave - you bring some interesting facts in your post. 70's AM radio definitely had it's share of teenage female listeners. Yes, many of them did relate to Karen. But even more interesting about the Carpenters is that eventhough they did have a large female fan base and the music was soft and tender - the bulk of their fan base was male. You'd think it would be otherwise - but really the Carpenters for some reason have a huge male fan base. My guestimate would be about 65% of the fanbase is male. Interesting isn't that.  |
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Post by GoodOldDreams on Nov 28, 2005 22:55:33 GMT -5
Hi Rick,
Based on the discussion threads, I marvel at the high number of males in the membership for this website, too! Any guess as to the percentage here?
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Post by Rick Henry on Nov 28, 2005 23:25:51 GMT -5
Hi Rick, Based on the discussion threads, I marvel at the high number of males in the membership for this website, too! Any guess as to the percentage here? Good question GoodOldDreams. I went through the members list and surveyed 120 of the members on this forum (randomly). Of the 120 I surveyed 79 are male, comprising 65% - I guess my guestimate was not that far off.
Just some interesting demographics about the Carpenters.
Along with this I've also noted that other than fans of pop music. The next genre of music most Carpenters fans come from is Goth - now isn't that also very interesting? |
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Dave
Ultra Emissary
"sleeping in the arms of the cosmos..."
Posts: 1,515
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Post by Dave on Nov 29, 2005 20:12:22 GMT -5
"...even though they did have a large female fan base and the music was soft and tender - the bulk of their fan base was male."
Yeah, but we were too cool to admit it (wink). We were into Jethro Tull, Elton John, Yes, Steely Dan, and the Doobie Brothers.
I still have Hurricane Smith's lone album in a box in the garage...
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Post by karen69roland on Nov 29, 2005 20:51:04 GMT -5
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Post by Rick Henry on Nov 29, 2005 21:42:03 GMT -5
"...even though they did have a large female fan base and the music was soft and tender - the bulk of their fan base was male." Yeah, but we were too cool to admit it (wink). We were into Jethro Tull, Elton John, Yes, Steely Dan, and the Doobie Brothers. I still have Hurricane Smith's lone album in a box in the garage... You are so right Dave. Back in the 70's everybody knew I loved Elton John, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix and Paul McCartney and Wings. But only my closest friends knew I loved Karen Carpenter. Gee - now everybody knows.  |
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Post by Rick Henry on Nov 29, 2005 21:53:01 GMT -5
"Bless The Beasts And Children" has been played on TV several times. I started watching it in 1994. I only made it through about fifteen minutes. I lost interest in it. I did hear the song played and instrumental bits of it. that was beautiful - but the movie itself just didn't keep my interest.
I've never seen "Lover's and Other Strangers" listed on TV. It is available on DVD.
Here's a link to it on Amazon.com |
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Post by karen69roland on Nov 29, 2005 23:01:16 GMT -5
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Post by smoothie2 on Nov 29, 2005 23:49:36 GMT -5
;DHi everybody...How Very interesting G.Dreams...what great info. and perspective ...!I haven't seen those movies either...but if Bless the Beasts etc. has anything to do w/ hurting animals or children...then that would really do away with it in my book.
Mostly, as mentioned, the main thing folks know back then and now..is the wonderful songs as performed by the C's. I didn't know those songs originated or were theme songs for those movies until I learned it here
at the site.
Both songs turned out to be real gems. Both carry strong messages, just as Rick mentioned the same about "Sing".
...........the fact also that this site is so popular among so many guys does surprise me some. But great music remains great no matter what...!
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Post by GoodOldDreams on Nov 30, 2005 2:20:47 GMT -5
Hi Roland, Rick and Smoothie2,
Thanks to my local library system, TV programming and a video store that features vintage movies (which coincidentally is called "Superstar Videos"), I have managed to to find all three cinematic works many years after they premiered. I think the music really enhances the message in each case in a very dramatic and poetic way.
Rick, your info on the availability of "Bless the Beasts and Children" and "Lovers and Other Strangers" are right on target! Despite the the initial 15 or so minutes that you can't get past, "Bless the Beasts and Children" is actually very thought-provoking and engaging. Once you understand how growing up in their respective dysfunctional families have shaped them as the story unfolds, the defensive quirks and personalities of the young protagonists fall by the wayside and you begin to care for them individually and collectively. You root for them as they challenge and support each other in overcoming their deepest personal fears and uniting in an act of courage and defiance against the often insipid "adult" world. The violence portrayed is graphic, but not gratuitous. This brings it back to my original point: the Carpenters did not shy away from potentially controversial subject matters, be d**ned the undeserving goody-two-shoes image. (With apologies to John Lennon, give "Beasts" a chance!)
(Interesting side note: Besides the main theme, there is another lovely theme in "Bless the Beasts and Children called "Cotton's Dream" written by Barry de Vorzon and Perry Botkin, Jr. The instrumental version of this song was rearranged and re-invented later as the theme for the TV soap opera "The Young and the Restless" and also as "Nadia's Theme." The Romanian gymnast Nadia Comaneci used it as accompanying music to some of her floor exercises at the 1976 Montreal Olympics, and she achieved perfect scores for the amazing performance of her routines. "Nadia's Theme" got a lot of air play, shooting up to position number 8 by December 1976 on the Billboard Music Charts, and won the Grammy Award for Best Instrumental Arrangement in 1977.)
Despite the mature subject matter in "Lovers and Other Strangers," some Carpenters fans will enjoy seeing how "For All We Know" was originally used for the now-obscure movie. A male vocalist does a fine job singing the movie's theme, and you can almost envision how Richard sensed the potentials of this song when he first heard it. James Griffin (from the group Bread, under the pseudonym of Arthur James), Robb Wilson and Fred Karlin co-wrote this Oscar-winning song, which was popularized by the Carpenters even though Petula Clark got the honor of performing it on Oscar night. (Karlin, alternatively spelled "Carlin," also co-wrote with Dory and André Previn for the Sandpipers' Oscar-nominated theme "Come Saturday Morning" for the 1969 movie "The Sterile Cuckoo.")
Most of us are familiar with the movie version of "Evita" starring Madonna and Antonio Banderas, which I like better than the original Broadway stage cast recording. I wonder what would have happened if Karen did a full-length production of this musical...
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Post by Rick Henry on Nov 30, 2005 9:26:46 GMT -5
I feel had Karen filmed a movie as Evita Peron she would have done beautifully. I feel Karen had the ability to be a fine dramatic actress (with training). The soundtrack would have been outstanding and without a doubt a huge seller.
My thoughts on Madonna as Evita: I did not care for it at all. Her rendering of "Don't Cry for Me Argentina" at best is only fair. I don't think she did the song any justice - she just doesn't have the right voice for this song. The definitive recording of the song in my mind is Karen Carpenter's reading. It may not be the most popular - but certainly the finest recording. Several popular artists have recorded the song - but none of them have got it right except Karen. Julie Covington did a fine performance of the song - but she's not a popular act. Donna Summer's vocal of the song was fine - but her disco music background didn't really fit. Olivia Newton-John just doesn't have the right voice for a grand song as this. Than again I am biased when it comes to Karen Carpenter, and anybody's recording of any song she's recorded is naturally going to pale in comparison. |
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Post by GoodOldDreams on Nov 30, 2005 13:16:24 GMT -5
Hi Dave,
Part of the reason I go into a lot of details and research is that I don't assume all visitors to this website are as lucky as we were in being around or aware when the Carpenters were at their prime of their careers. Many were born afterwards or are discovering or re-discovering their music only relatively recently. I think the research and educational process can help us fans and critics alike to better appreciate the timeless but still often underrated music of the Carpenters in the context of their often-turbulent history.
Of course, I learn a lot from others on this site also. I, too, am surprised by the demography of the Carpenters' fan base. Aside from Richard's proven musical talents, my theory on why a vast majority of the fan base is male is three-fold: (1) we can readily identify with the genuine, nongender-specific human emotions Karen expressed so well, but were hindered by gender stereotypes to acknowledge it before, so we unknowingly became a silent majority; (2) Karen shattered the girly-girl stereotype by her drum-playing and tomboyish charms; and (3) we can sing along in Karen's deep, rich contralto range better than anything else (L.O.L.)!
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