Criticism from the critics

[Rick Henry]

Here's a hot topic to delve into. As we all know through all of the 70's and most of the 80's critics dismissed Carpenters music as being bland and and disposable. Though in the past 15 years the very same critics who so brutally dogged the Carpenters have changed their mind and now call the music classic and name Karen as one of the world's finest vocalists of all-time.

What is your take on this?

[enigma]

Thats so true Dave as Karen once said they had fans from 8-80 people moms were buying them Carpenter records and listeneing to them together. Maybe this was part of the criticism of the Carpenters where was the rebellion in their music? I mean come on your parents loving and listening to the music you listen to how uncool/unhip was and is that? But the one thing I feel critics were not doing is actually listening to the music on its own merit they were too focused on the image and style of music. As time goes by the image becomes a distant memory and the style of music becomes irrelevant people are actually listening to the music and hearing a great body of work, they are hearing an incredible voice with some great arrangements and production techniques, they are appreciating the amount of work and talent that went into creating this music. So all these silly prejudices that critics and alot of people had in general disappear when they get beyond the BS of the image and just listen to the music recorded and I mean really listen to it.

Its funny alot of people will not admit they like certain artists yet people are coming out of the woodwork in great numbers and finally admitting they liked the Carpenters How sweet it is that more people are admitting or realising what we all knew all along the Carpenters are a great act with great quality music and Karen Carpenter is among the best voices ever recorded its long overdue and I for one am loving every minute of it!

[Carps1000]

My view is that most of the critics were sooo busy with the latest trend that lastest all of 4 mins & all as shallow as each other that they couldnt desipher a good song or arrangement or production on their own & just followed others like little lambs & of course when the trend turned for the better for the Cs of course all of these shallow drongos followed suite & loved the Cs too. Boiling point with me. I dont like the Beatles at all but they were a brill band & Id never slagg em off. Ken carps100000000000000

[Rick Henry]

I feel that some of the criticism Carpenters received came from A&M's mishandiling of their promotion. It's been mentioned many time the promotion department just did not know how to promote the Carpenters.

Here you had this fresh looking brother and sister duo with pictures of them looking sticky sweet - it's no wonder the critics had a heyday with Carpenters. Some critics were outright mean to K&R. And the sad thing is they really didn't deserve it. The Carpenters music was without a doubt solid and the vocals were absolute perfection. There was not one thing wrong with Carpenters' music.

So maybe Carpenters didn't make any social statements and maybe they didn't rock hard. And that is fine. I do love rock music. I own every Led Zeppelin album ever recorded, I own most of Jimi Hendrix's, Coldpaly, Pink Floyd, U2. But great music comes in different shapes, forms and sounds. There is not one specific formula that is owner of great music. Carpenters music was just as outstanding as anybody elses music of the time and of all-time. It is just wrapped in an easy going and beautiful package.

[JIM]

I have to agree Rick, it has been mentioned many times in documentarys that A&M was just not sure how to promote the Carpenters image in the media. We can see now what people could not see then, the creation of music that was so unique that it simply did not fit into any one category. I find that some of that confusions is still on going to this day. Some record stores place them in easy listening, which they certainly are not! Some have them in adult contemporary which I think is O.K Borders has them in a category titled rock standards, which I feel is an accurate description out of all the various categorys.

Enigma I love how you pointed out that mom's were listening to the same music as there kids and how that could be percieved as not cool. I know I have mentioned a couple times that the first concert I went to was the Carpenters in 1971, with my mom! I am so gratefull that I was to young to fall victim to the prejudices that seemed to haunt the Carpenters in there hey day. From the first time I heard CTY I knew I loved the Carpenters, it never occured to me that there was so much fear of being labled uncool for liking the Carpenters at 6 yrs of age. I must admit as I entered jrhigh I did hide my enthusiasim to a degree, feeling the tug of peer pressure to be cool. So there were a few years where I can remeber wondering what it was that made others think so negatively about such great music. How could anyone hear Karen and not just melt was beyond me.

Jim

[Rick Henry]

Enigma, Jim and Ken you all bring up some good points. I was the same way once I was in Jr. High and High School I pretty much went into the closet with my love for the Carpenters. But there were times when I'd let it be known that I loved them. Usually when I did people would make fun of me.

I can remember one Christmas (I believe it was Christmas 1975) I received a copy of "Now And Then" on 8-track. My cousin in-law was sitting right next to me as I opened the gift. At this point I was 15 years old, she was 24. She looked at it and took it in her hand. Her first comment was, "you don't really like this do you?" Then she looked at the song titles and she says, "All these songs are done by others artists and are much better than the Carpenters." I asked her if she had heard this album. She said no. So she made a prejudgment of the Carpenters without even listening to the album itself to determine whether or not it was any good. That was the general consensus of the public in the 70's. They pretty much made up their mind on the Carpenters just from the pictures they had seen of them. A lot of people who dogged them (and there were a lot) never really even gave the music a real listen. It wasn't until the 90's ( quite possibly 1994 when the tribute album "If I Were A Carpenter" was released) that these naysayers actually listened to the music without prejudice.

[JIM]

;D Rick what is really sad about your comment is that the criticism came from within your family, the very people who should love and support you without judgment. I was the youngest of all of my cousins on both sides and I also was criticized for liking the Carpenters. I have a cousin in Cleveland who was Mr. Camaro Cool and I will never forget the day I found in his record collection of certified acceptably cool albums 69-73 and Barbara Striesands Guilty! He said his girl friend stuck them there, right. My heart belongs to the Carpenters but I also admire many other rock groups from that era. Journey, Boston, The Eagles and many others. I find it ironic that the C's were labled as a manufactured band, which they were not and today I find most top 40 acts have become less and less musical and more prefabricated then the Carpenters were ever accused of being. What is really disturbing is the syndication of radio. Gone are the days when a DJ had the liberty of spinning a demo and letting the public decide its popularity by means of call in requests to hear that song eventually determining its billboard status. A group such as the Carpenters would be dismissed before it even had a chance today.

When I was young I'd listen to the radio so fine so fine.
Jim

[Rob813]

Good points everybody. I think Carpenters came along at a time of great social and political upheaval. Their music was a healing balm to many, many people. It just made you feel good. But, Karen and Richard were always promoted as being purer than pure and this image was just not accepted by the rock world. The duo tried to change the image, but it was met by resistance from the studio and their family.

After a while, the arbiters of taste just dismissed them as being bubble gum. From 1976 onward it just got worse, with disco taking over and people looking for more uptempo songs that they could dance to. I know both Karen and Richard struggled with how to change and grow as artists. Their later albums reflected this desire to change their sound without turning off the die hard fans.

I think they were victims of their own success. People who liked them didn't really want them to change and people who didn't like them could care less with whatever they did.

[Rick Henry]

Rob, I agree with all you had to say except for the very last comment about "People who liked them didn't really want them to change".

Myself personally in 1980 I kept hoping the Carpenters' next album would be more upbeat with some good guitar work. I was hoping for some good dance-pop tunes. I was really hoping to hear a change and a new direction from Carpenters. In 1980 I really did not want to hear the Carpenters release another "I Believe You" or "There's A Kind Of Hush" - that's just not where the music scene was at that time. I love those songs - but it was time for Carpenters to move onward into the new decade and into the second phase of their career. If Karen's solo were to have been released in 1980 I would have just went crazy over that album. This is exactly the sound Carpenters needed to bring them back into the top ten.

Though going back to your statement Rob, you are probably right in that some die hard Carpenters fans didn't want them to change - but not all felt that way. I think it was about 50-50.

[JIM]

I feel that no matter what the critics had to say, the Carpenters had established themselves as a class A act and just as Streisand, Simon and Garfunkel among others in this league. It was no longer necessary to produce a top 40 album but rather focus on new material such as an album of standards or just about anything that was a diversion from what had established them in the past. They were free to just record anything knowing there fans were here to stay. I could not agree more Rick in that Karen's solo album made more sense then MIA but I guess A&M was affraid to let them change and they felt pressure to stick to what A&M wanted, which by that point was an oversight by A&M to say the least.

By 81 it was time for what Phil and Karen produced and I do hope that the rest of the songs are released some day. Love Makin Love To You is such a great song along with the others and would make a great 2nd. Karen solo album.

Jim

[Rick Henry]

jgh said:

I feel that no matter what the critics had to say, the Carpenters had established themselves as a class A act and just as Streisand, Simon and Garfunkel among others in this league. It was no longer necessary to produce a top 40 album but rather focus on new material such as an album of standards or just about anything that was a diversion from what had established them in the past. They were free to just record anything knowing there fans were here to stay. I could not agree more Rick in that Karen's solo album made more sense then MIA but I guess A&M was affraid to let them change and they felt pressure to stick to what A&M wanted, which by that point was an oversight by A&M to say the least.

By 81 it was time for what Phil and Karen produced and I do hope that the rest of the songs are released some day. Love Makin Love To You is such a great song along with the others and would make a great 2nd. Karen solo album.

Jim

You are so right in what you say here Jim. The Carpenters were certainly a class A act at this point in time and they really didn't need to make the top 40 anymore. but of course being competitive as they were they did want their albums and singles to continue with the success they once had.

I feel had Karen lived Carpenters would have finally made the big comeback maybe in 1985 and had a second string of hits.

[YesterdayOnceMore]

Hi All
Sorry to be so scarce these days - life has a way of taking its turns on one - and I guess it's my turn to be covered-up busy and unable to even get time to check out my favorite website.....that being this one, of course.

Look for my article, hopefully next month, that will center around this topic. I hope to be able to find a lot of good information for you, and perhaps incorporate some of your comments from this thread, as well.

Hoping everyone is doing well. Karen and Richard got much criticism, tis true, but my - aren't those people feeling foolish now, don't you suppose? Look at the love the American public (many of them, at any rate) have for the wonderful, indellible music of 2 young "kids" from Downey - Carpenters. What would our music culture be without this beautiful, timeless music?

More to come.....I promise!
Best to all,
Tim

[GoodOldDreams]

Some great observations here, everybody.

Jim, in your reply #9 you suggested that the Carpenters could have focused on new material such as an album of standards... In the PBS documentary "Close to You: Remembering the Carpenters," Richard said that their last (and very classy) TV special "Music, Music, Music" was by design devoid of shtick and focused on the music itself. As I recall, that show featured many pop standards that Karen sang in solos and duets with Ella Fitzgerald and John Davidson. Richard said that the critics and/or powers-that-be lamented something to the effect, "What the hell do you think this (show) is... a PBS special?" This implied that they all thought the show lacked commercial and popular appeal.

All of the Carpenters' albums (including even the Christmas-themed ones!) contain a wide variety of musical styles. They encompass folk, country, rock oldies, contemporary jazz, big band, pop standard, Broadway/movie/musical, symphonic, and choral. In those days, however, music promoters tended to pigeonhole and mass-market performers under specific genres of music, and were not prepared to deal with a group as versatile as the Carpenters. It is interesting to note that it took years later in the 1980's and 1990's that singers like Linda Ronstadt managed to cross over between different genres of music. In her case, it was from country/folk-rock to pop standards to Latin.

I guess that we can say that the Carpenters were really years ahead of their time!

[JIM]

???Hey Goodolddreams interesting point. With the exception of Touch and 45789 the rest of the program was very experimental just as Richard prefered when producing an album. Considering this an album of just one style would have been something richard probably would have thought to be way to limiting.

Jim

[Rick Henry]

goodolddreams said:

Some great observations here, everybody.

Jim, in your reply #9 you suggested that the Carpenters could have focused on new material such as an album of standards... In the PBS documentary "Close to You: Remembering the Carpenters," Richard said that their last (and very classy) TV special "Music, Music, Music" was by design devoid of shtick and focused on the music itself. As I recall, that show contained many pop standards that Karen sang in solos and duets with Ella Fitzgerald and John Davidson. Richard said that the critics and/or powers-that-be lamented something to the effect, "What the hell do you think this (show) is... a PBS special?" This implied that they all thought the show lacked commercial and popular appeal.

All of the Carpenters' albums (even the Christmas-themed ones!) contain a wide variety of musical styles, encompassing folk, country, rock oldies, contemporary jazz, big band, pop standard, Broadway musical, movie themes, symphonic, and choral. In those earlier days, however, music promoters tended to pigeonhole and mass-market performers under specific genres of music, and were not prepared to deal with a group as versatile as the Carpenters. It is interesting to note that it took years later in the 1980's and 1990's that singers like Linda Ronstadt managed to cross over between different genres of music, from country/folk-rock to pop standards to Latin.

I guess that we can say that the Carpenters were really decades ahead of their time!

Some good points GoodOldDreams. Carpenters were right in with their time, but they were also ahead of their time. If that makes any sense.

They were experimenting with sounds and ideas other pop groups wouldn't even touch. I mean the loud fuzz guitar solo in "Goodbye To Love" - that was unheard of in a love song until Carpenters did it.

Look at every one of their albums they all have a variety of different genres and musical experimentations. Not many other pop groups in the 70's went to the degree Carpenters did. "Made In America" is probably their safest album of them all - with the least amount of variation - but even that one shows some variety. On the "Close To You" album they have the beautiful "Maybe It's You" and yet on the same album they have the experimental jazz/rock tune "Another Song". And then on "A Kind Of Hush" there's the almost experimental vibes of "Boat to Sail" which is right after the serene and almost mysterious "One More Time". Than they're off in a completely different direction on "Passage" with "Sweet Sweet Smile" which is on the same album with the space epic "calling Occupant...". Their albums were always full of surprises on the first listen. That's what made Carpenters such an interesting group. They had variety - they weren't the same thing album after album. They matured and grew with each album.

Richard not only chose songs of varying genres, but also of different decades. Carpenters recorded songs from the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's. Many people can't understand why Richard chose songs like "Goofus" or "Man Smart Woman Smarter (which were not your normal fare for a mellow top 40 act of the 70's). I can understand why he did. Richard was a music historian. He enjoyed songs with an interesting history behind them. These songs have an interesting background.

[STEVE1975]

I guess that I was lucky-in one way at least. I have become a fan fairly recently. Right now (at least in my age group) it has become hip and cool to like The Carpenters. If I were to mention The Carpenters to someone in my age group they would say it was cool to like them and if I was to metion them to my older co-workers (like 45-60 year olds) they would like them too. Either way life is too short to worry what critics and other people think. As long as I know what Karen and Richard's music means to me all the other people can kiss my as*! Specially that thing "Pamella"

[smoothie2]

;DEveryone has put in some real thought for their answers...very good perspectives...
and still, the question remains..there's still some wonder in my head ...I'm very grateful that the C's are still with us and still have remained popular perhaps even moreso today...
thanks to great technology in making tracks of music
sound even greater with re-mastered factors...
thanks to Richard and those who may help him keep the music going
there has also been a big revival the past few yrs. with the "softer" sound or resurgence of the classic
tunes and/or big band types of music...Harry Connick Jr.,
Michael Buble' , etc.
YAY....HOW WONDERFUL !