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Post by cam83 on Oct 21, 2005 19:48:03 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair for those of us, who were not in their marriage, to side either with Karen or Tom. We don't know what happened. It's just speculation. I dislike when others put Tom down because their marriage didn't work out. There were 2 people in the marriage. Karen's anorexia would have put a HUGE strain on any relationship, let alone a marriage. Tom was human and made mistakes. Karen was human and made mistakes too. We are all human and make mistakes.
My thoughts, Cam
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 21, 2005 20:42:48 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair for those of us, who were not in their marriage, to side either with Karen or Tom. We don't know what happened. It's just speculation. I dislike when others put Tom down because their marriage didn't work out. There were 2 people in the marriage. Karen's anorexia would have put a HUGE strain on any relationship, let alone a marriage. Tom was human and made mistakes. Karen was human and made mistakes too. We are all human and make mistakes. My thoughts, Cam Once again Cam you hit it right on the mark. Who knows what their marriage was like. I also feel it's not fair to judge Tom for breaking off the marriage. Karen was a human being with an advanced illness and a big big career. Ideally as Karen Carpenter fans we want to think that Karen was perfect and easy to live with. But when you look at the facts it's just not so. Sad to say.
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Post by mrbillis4u on Oct 22, 2005 10:42:50 GMT -5
I must be one of those people who listen to karen and richard in a whole different ball park.. I can not honestly sit down and write out 10 songs that are least favorite to me. I tried it by listening to the cd's from first to last and the memories and emotions of each song flooded my mind and soul. I find something so interesting in each song. Maby I am not objective enough but I would never give one of there songs back.. even after 35 years of listening
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Post by JIM on Oct 22, 2005 11:54:34 GMT -5
You all make a very good point in that none of us were there to know exactly what went on between Karen and Tom but you must admit that from the sources at our diposal, namely RC and the Coleman book, Tom is for the most part portraied as a cheater and not a very understanding person. At the same time in Tom's defense, it seems from what I have read, Karen was bent on marrying money. Also because little was known about Anorexia in those days he probably was not prepared for such an extremely serious illness.So this match was a bad one to say the least. Two Sides. Jim
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 22, 2005 19:48:49 GMT -5
I must be one of those people who listen to karen and richard in a whole different ball park.. I can not honestly sit down and write out 10 songs that are least favorite to me. I tried it by listening to the cd's from first to last and the memories and emotions of each song flooded my mind and soul. I find something so interesting in each song. Maby I am not objective enough but I would never give one of there songs back.. even after 35 years of listening I'm the same as you in this regard Mr. Bill. Even the songs that I think could have been better or the Richard lead vocal tracks I still atleast like them. And I guess I am biased in that I can't make a list of least favorite or worst Carpenters songs. You all make a very good point in that none of us were there to know exactly what went on between Karen and Tom but you must admit that from the sources at our diposal, namely RC and the Coleman book, Tom is for the most part portraied as a cheater and not a very understanding person. Two Sides. Jim I never got that from anything I ever read or heard of Tom. I've never once heard that he cheated on Karen. As a matter of fact I heard the exact opposite. I had heard he was very faithful to Karen. As far as not being understanding I never heard that also. The only thing I've heard is that he threww his wedding ring into Karen's casket. Even with this I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he was that cold hearted that he "chucked" the ring with thoughts of good now it's over. I'm inclined to believe that he most likely gently tossed the ring into her casket with a sad goodbye.
I get this feeling that Richard is not a good source of who Tom Burris was. Richard was against Tom and Karen's marriage from the beginning.
Obviously there must have been some good in Tom for Karen to have fallen in love with him. Even up to the very end she really did not want to sign the divorce papers - she still loved him. But she was going to finally sign on the day she died. She probably realized it wasn't fair to Tom to keep him in a marriage that wasn't working. She was not able to spend a lot of quality time with him because of her career. And when she could spend time with him her emotions were tied in a knot with her issues dealing with anorexia. I just don't think that Karen was able to maintain a real and nurturing relationship at that time in her life.
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Post by JIM on Oct 23, 2005 0:49:17 GMT -5
Not to dwell on a mute point Rick but in the movie the Karen Carpenter Story they don't come out directly but in one seen Tom is hanging out scoping women with his friends, which I can only percieve as someone who is not faithful. Also in the Coleman book there is a section I will have to locate so don't quote me, where Karen is so mad she refuses to sign the divorce papers until she is satisfied with how much money she will get in the settlement. Also the passage where after a dinning out with Karen and her parents, Tom leaves her at the family resisdence, telling them you can keep her. I am really sorry I brought up such a bad subject, after all nothing can change what happened and blaming one person for an illness that began way before she met Tom is really not fair. Me wanting to blame this person who I know nothing of outside of a movie and a biography is immature to say the least. As I have learned through out my life, taking sides in a relationship gone bad is never a good idea. There are just to many details and truths known only to two people and it is only natural to favor on the side of personal bias of the one you care about most. Jim
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 23, 2005 2:30:44 GMT -5
In the movie it's Tom's friend who is scoping the girls. Tom looks at his wedding ring to remind his friend that he is not single anymore. I don't remember the scene exactly but that's what i remember - tom made a gesture of some sort to his friend that he is married now. But this was only a movie and not all of it was true to life as Richard has commented several times.
I always took the part where Tom leaves Karen with her parents as a sign that obviously Karen was a bit more to handle than he thought. You just can not ignore the fact that Karen had a relationship debilitating disease.
I'm certain Tom had his part in the failure of this marriage - but Karen certainly had her part in it also.
As for your feelings Jim those are your feelings and it is natural for you to want to take the side of Karen. but if you really look at it realistically Karen was not in a period of her life where she could be a warm loving nuturing person. I love Karen dearly also but the facts are on the table as to where Karen's pyche was at this point in time.
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Post by enigma on Oct 23, 2005 7:01:38 GMT -5
Some of what I will say has been said but I will give my take on the whole Tom and Karen thing. I have heard alot of resentment toward Tom for his part in the breakup of the marriage and it is not giving the man a fair shake. I suppose being Carpenter fans and loving Karen it is natural to put the blame on Tom or resent him for the marriage collapsing but we do not know Tom or Karen for that matter. I have read what Tom did during the marriage, I read Toms interview in Rolling Stone; his final interview regarding the breakup of the marriage before the Carpenter family silenced him he has not spoken of it since nor have I even heard of him since also I have got an idea of how Karen was to live with based on accounts Richard recited in an interview of when he and Karen lived together. Karen was not perfect to live with she was a kind wonderful human being but she also had certain things that could make living with her difficult she was not perfect. Living with someone with an ED is not easy and when Tom married Karen she was still in the grips of AN so that did stress the marriage and then the dynamics of the Carpenter family probably did not help and that is only what is know there is probably a whole host of other things that caused problems in that marriage that only Tom and Karen would know. The point is I give it a 50 50 blame ratio both Tom and Karen caused the desimation of that marriage they simply were not a good match and the fact the marriage dissolved after less than a year is testimony to that fact neither one was ready for marriage when they got married. Now the ring thing was apparently a show of respect by Tom to Karen he did not throw the ring but placed it gentley in the coffin as if to say you are free Karen the marriage is over. Also this idea that Tom put the final nail in Karens coffin is nonsensical to me because Karen had been ravaged by the effects of her ED before she ever saw Tom and she was on the road to recovery at the time of her death. Karen wanted to live she was trying to do what needed to be done to get past her ED she was to sign her devorce papers the day she died it is clear she was ready to move on. Her death was something that just happened and I do not think Karen wanted to die when she did nor do I think her marriages failure had much to do with it. Just my thoughts on the subject. BTW Jim I do not think you brought up a bad subject its a subject that is often discussed by Carpenter fans.
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Post by Rick Henry on Oct 23, 2005 11:15:50 GMT -5
More interesting comments here.
First I want to clear up some of my earlier comments on this topic. I went back and reread some of the Coleman book this morning. I decided not to refer to the movie because I feel this movie is an exageration of facts and very one sided.
In rereading the book. I came to realize I was wrong in saying that Karen was still in love and didn't want this divorce. Karen actually did want to divorce Tom. She was ready to sign the divorce papers. But she didn't like the fact of getting a divorce. She didn't want to get a divorce - I feel more because of a status thing. I think in her mind she thought that this would be a bad mark on her if she were to divorce. It had nothing to do with love or falling out of love. It had everything to do with how the public would perceive Karen Carpenter if she got a divorce. This I read on Page 25.
Also on page 25 Karen says to Werner (her lawyer who was drawing up the divorce papers), "Did you get the better of him?" From this comment I see it more of Karen not wanting Tom's money - because Karen certainly did not need money. I think she just wanted to do whatever she could to hurt him. She obviously did not want to have an amicable divorce.
On page 284 Karen ended the honeymoon early because she was bored with it. From this I though to myself, how would I feel if I were on my honeymoon and it was ended early because my new wife was bored by it. I would be terribly hurt. I sure Tom must have been totally blown away by this. This was a very selfish act on Karen's part. Right from the very beginning the marriage was thrown on to a rocky road.
And then finally on page 289 Richard says, "Karen could have never been happily married to anybody going about it the way she did."
I just thought some of this was very interesting. I love Karen and always will - but at the same point I also know she was not perfect and I don't want to make her out to be this perfect angel.
Tom certainly had his part in it. Before Karen and Tom married he called Richard a dictator. In 1980 Richard was making plans for the Carpenters comeback and I don't think Richard really put into consideration Karen's feelings or needs as he was making these plans hence Tom's "dictator" comment. In a way I have to respect Tom for speaking up. Richard was a powerful man and not many crossed him. But Tom had the guts to cross Richard and for that Richard never liked Tom.
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Post by GoodOldDreams on Nov 24, 2005 16:57:26 GMT -5
Interesting discussion about Tom Burris' rocky relationships with Karen and Richard, but Cam and Rick are right in their original points about the questionable nature of our speculations as outsiders to these private relationships.
Going back to the topic, I like most of the songs that the Carpenters have recorded together. With interesting musical hooks and given the right context, some of the less prominent cuts on the albums have become among my personal favorites (such as "I Can't Make Music," "Those Good Old Dreams," "Ordinary Fool," "Crystal Lullaby" and "Road Ode"). However, there are some songs that don't succeed in sparking much of my personal interest, especially those that seem a bit frivolous or banal in content or style:
Don't be Afraid Invocation Benediction Druscilla Penny Flat Baroque (Is this title also an intentional clever word-play on the phrase "flat broke"?) Goofus (intriguing in concept, but not in execution) Can't Smile without You Breaking up is Hard to Do (Neil Sedaka's jazz lounge piano version is much better) Sweet, Sweet Smile Man Smart, Woman Smarter Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft (grand in concept, but not so great in execution) I Just Fall in Love Again Beechwood 4-5789 (Want You) Back in My Life Again Two Lives Prime Time Love
Unfortunately, none of the songs on Richard's solo albums ("Time" and "Richard Carpenter: Pianist, Arranger, Composer, Conductor") and only about half of the songs on Karen's solo album have made any significant or favorable impression on me.
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Post by GoodOldDreams on Nov 24, 2005 17:24:41 GMT -5
Hi Cam,
I, too, am surprised that the heart-felt song "Sometimes" is on your list of Ten Worst or Least Favorite of the Carpenters' songs. Although the piano intro seems a bit long for this inherently short song, on the positive side, think of it as a full-verse karaoke segment that you can sing in a duet with Karen!
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Post by beaner on Nov 24, 2005 20:20:18 GMT -5
Sounds like we got off of the thread title of the top 10 worstest. Thanks for bringing it back GoodOldDreams. However, the discussion of the Tom and Karen marriage thing, etc. is interesting to read. Maybe we can move it Rick, and keep it going. I agree with Rick and Enigma that it was a 50-50 thing and although I absolutely loved Karen, she was human and not only made mistakes but was a person who could have some anger inside perhaps. Personally, I think that Karen may have had a lot of anger inside and making friends was probably a very difficult thing for her to do let alone begin a marriage. Think about all that she endured from the time she was first called, I think the word was "chubby". Then having Mrs. Carpenter favor Richard on so many things and not getting the affection she deserved. Then the solo album differences she and Richard had, on into the marriage, etc. Tom must have known of Karen's illness so both of them knew that this and marrying into a celebrity life was a big step and both would have to give it 50-50. Just my 2 cents.
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