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Post by shalalala on Mar 22, 2005 3:09:14 GMT -5
It is my understanding that Richard Carpenter played a big role in the decision to nix the release of Karen's solo LP. I read somewhere that he simply didn't think it was very good. For that reason, I am somewhat reluctant to listen to it as I don't want anything to tarnish Karen's legacy, in my eyes and ears anyway.
Am I worrying about nothing here? Or will I be disappointed when I download it to my iPod?
Also, what is the difference between the LPs "Karen Carpenter" and "Voice of the Heart?" Are they not the same thing?
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Post by Carps1000 on Mar 22, 2005 3:49:06 GMT -5
Hi, The album Voice of the heart was released in Oct 83 which featured archive/last recordings etc of Karen & Richard....On hearing it for the 1st time I burst into tears as I was still mourning for Karen as it was sooooo beautiful. The Karen Carpenter album is the SOLO project done in 1979/1980(While Richard was recovering from his addiction to sleeping pills) which was produced by Phil Ramone & shelved by A&M because THEY & Richard thought it wasnt up 2 scratch & altho at the time I was really angry at em for denying us some songs from Karen, when you do listen to the album which was eventually released in 1996, after a while you can see why they did, as Phil Ramone tried to make Karen sound like a streetwise NYC hard girl & her singing range was way to high to ensure that the fan/listener was lost in a pure golden light of dream sounding perfection as in Carps sounds produced by Richard. Listen to the album but dont judge the Cs sound by it...it is good tho but not as good as Rich produced Carps records.....& no offence to Phil Romone/NYC streetwise Kids etc... its just my own opinion b4 I get a back lash. Ken (Carps 1000)
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Post by enigma on Mar 22, 2005 7:44:55 GMT -5
I never try to tell people what to think about something. But in this case, give it a listen. For me, this album gets better every time I listen to it. But be forewarned, it's not what you've grown up listening to. It's a good first effort, and it has a definitive New York sound to it. Let us know what you think, after you listen to it two or more times. I second that one Dave. Shalala do not judge this effort on first listen as Richard did listen to it a few times and see if it grows on you. No this record is not at all a Carpenters record. Its more edgey the subject matter is more mature than that of a Carpenters record and it has more of an East Coast street sound as opposed to the lush arrangements and laid back West Coast sound of the Carpenters. Personally when I first listened to this record I had to get used to it. Upon first listen there were a few songs I liked rright off the bat that kept my interest and after a few listens I ended up loving it all. This is a different Karen so as far as tarnishing her reputation I will let you make the call on that one for me it enhanced her reputation rather than tarnished it. This all Karen giving it all she could give without Richard and a great first effort I love it! Hope this is helpful.
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Post by Rick Henry on Mar 22, 2005 9:31:53 GMT -5
To give you a direct and simple answer Shalalala. Yes, you should listen to the album. It is musically and vocally outstanding. Now to give you a more detailed answer. The album was produced by Phil Ramone. Ramone is one of the best in the industry having produced records for luminaries such as Simon and Garfunkel, Barbra Streisand, Billy Joel, and countless others. As for Richard's opinion (and it is only an opinion). I feel his call on Karen's album was at best clouded and one sided. I respect Richard for his fabulous work. But he's not the only one out there who can make a great record. His word is not the Holy Grail of music. The songs definitely have a slight edgy feel to them and this is excellent because the album fit very well with the 80's. Karen would have burst onto the scene with her new modern sound. The vocal arrangements on the solo album are outstandingly intense. The vocals were arranged by rod Temperton. Temperton first came to fame in the 70's with the funk/R&B/disco group Heatwave (remember their hits "Boogie Nights" and "Always And Forever"). Temperton also had a major role in Michael Jackson's "Thriller" album. On the song "If I Had You" the vocal mix at the end is a musical triumph. Never has any Carpenters record had such complex vocal mixing. And mind you when I say this I am not putting down any Carpenters records, because I love the Carpenters. But from a purely objective musicains standpoint the vocal mix on Karen Carpenter solo is certainly far more complex than anything on a Carpenters album. Many people try to call Karen's album a "disco" album. This is untrue. Yes, the album does have three fun and upbeat disco songs. But beyond that it has other styles. Two of the songs are "power pop" with an upbeat and fun sound - "Still In Love With You" and "Making Love In The Afternoon" (with Peter Cetera of Chicago on harmony vocals). There is a modren country song with "All Because Of You". Karen's intimate reading of "Make Believe It's Your First Time" is the album's only standard ballad and it is absolutely beautiful. It's simplistically done and focuses on Karen's voice. The rest of the songs are jazz influence those being the outstanding "If I Had You", "Guess I Just Lost My Head", "If We Try", "Last One Singin' The Blues (this one is almost playful in a dark sort of way) and a tasty cover of Paul Simon's "Still Crazy After All These Years". Another misconception is the topic of Karen's vocal range. Some say Karen was singing out of her range - way too high. This is also false. First off I don't hear one song where she's singing too high. All the songs fit her range perfectly. Karen was a talented singer and could handle most any song. And for Richard to say Karen's vocals were to high is outrageous. Because a few months later he went into the studio with Karen and produced "Made In America" which contained vocals by Karen which were much higher than anything on KC solo. So, that makes that theory null and void. Karen Carpenter solo represents Karen for who she wanted to be in 1979 - 1980. This album and the songs were Karen's choice. I feel karen made outstanding musical choices. She had an excellent ear for music and for what was relevant at the time. Karen no longer wanted to be known as the little girl blue (which is where Richard wanted to keep her). Instead Karen wanted to be viewed as a forward thinking modern young lady. She wanted to shine to be playful and have some fun. In relation to "Voice Of The Heart". This is an album made up of a few new recording and the rest are songs which Richard himself felt were not good enough to make it on to previous Carpenters albums. I like VOTH but I do not feel it is a consistent collection. I feel Karen Carpenter solo is a much stronger effort by far - much more consistent. So, yes by all means KC solo is worth listening to. If you like an upbeat 80's sound you will love this album.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Mar 22, 2005 10:56:03 GMT -5
$% I echo Rick's thinking on this album 100%. It's quality - it's not Carpenters - it's Karen Carpenter - the woman of 1979/1980, and it's a wonderful listen - over and over again. In fact, I'm listening to it, now. Give it a go, mate.
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Post by karen69roland on Mar 22, 2005 13:15:28 GMT -5
I agree with you all..., Rick's view of it is a lot like mine.
I would only add that the similitude to Karen's solo album concerning Rod Temperton is a little more to Michael Jackson's *Off The Wall* album, released the same year of Karen's solo work in 1979.
To me, the songs *My Body Keeps Changing My Mind* and *If We Try* are worth buying the album alone..., all the others a pretty good too..., great vocal arrangements.
Buy it , Mark. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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Post by shalalala on Mar 22, 2005 13:23:01 GMT -5
To everyone, thanks for your thoughts.
Rick, that was some endorsement. I'm definitely going to download it this week and give it a listen. I too had heard that the LP was "out of Karen's range" and "too edgy," but you seem to have disspelled those myths.
After reading your post, I wonder -- and maybe this is a topic for another thread -- how long the Carpenters would have stayed together as a group. Richard obviously was protective of Karen's image, maybe too protective. Could that possessiveness have caused future friction in their relationship, ultimately leading Karen to a permanent solo career? I'd be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on this.
Also, how sick was Karen at the time of her solo recording? If it was 79-80, she had to have been in the throes of anorexia at this point.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Mar 22, 2005 13:34:24 GMT -5
*% Having just reread Ray Coleman's book, and reading about the anguished Karen Carpenter, who was having difficulty with just about everything in her life at this point - I can answer you that yes, without question, Karen was definitely in the throes of anorexia; deeply entrenched by this point in time. In fact, there was a time when she passed out while recording this album. She worked tirelessly on it. I think you're right, too, in that the idea of what might have happened to them as a duo would be a good idea for a new thread - insofar as Karen's solo effort is concerned, however, I would direct you to the Too Hot To Handle board, where it is still being discussed. There is an abundance of great, great information on this board, including info from one of the band members that played on Karen's solo CD. It's good reading. You'll learn a lot! ~Best to you Tim
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Post by cam83 on Mar 22, 2005 14:40:32 GMT -5
Hi All, Well, well, well! I guess I will add my thoughts too. I fully agree with everything Rick said. It IS a marvelous album! And you cannot judge it alongside a CARPENTERS album, because there are really no comparisons in that regard. Karen did this record because she didn't want to have nothing to do while Richard was in treatment. She wanted to be busy, so A&M looked around and chose producer Phil Ramone. They had meetings, and Karen came on board to do her solo album. It was HER album, HER time to shine. The selections on the KAREN CARPENTER release are wonderful, and stand up to everything that anything was done back then, plus more. Karen was a perfectionist in the studio, and put her heart and soul into this project. She also put in $400,000 of her own money, plus the alloted $100,000 A&M gave to her. So, this album was not a cheap, low costly thing...that was A LOT of money for Karen to invest into. And yes, she does sing high, but not that much higher than on songs Richard had her doing...Crescent Noon has high notes...Because We Are In Love was a 3 octave range song for Karen to sing. So it is silly for him to say these songs are too high, when he had her singing her range. Plus most singers, that have wide ranges, will make use of their FULL range...low and high for effect. So Karen had a 4 octave range that sounded heavenly. I loved the album. I loved the fact that it had different styles. And the fact remains, Karen CHOSE all the songs! She wanted to experiment with music, her voice, her wordings, everything. And she had more of a say than she did with working with Richard. So in a way, it was very liberating for her to do her OWN solo album. And another fact is the day before she died, she said to Phil...that the album is really great!! So she knew it! Even though A&M execs and Richard were not pleased with the record. I always think, it would have scared Richard, had A&M decided to release the album, and Karen done promotion and some small tours, where would he have fit in, when it was realized that Karen could fly on her own wings. Imagine all the celebrities that would want to sing with Karen, and Karen would have the chance to say yes, sing with me! Now that she was in charge...It's a shame it wasn't released. More importantly, Karen was devestated by the rejection. Anyways, I love her album!! My thoughts, Cameron
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Post by shalalala on Mar 22, 2005 15:41:21 GMT -5
Wow, I just heard "Making Love in the Afternoon" for the first time. I can see what you mean by "edgy." Karen's voice sounds great. I can't think of the word to describe it ... crisp? Sharp? And I've always liked Peter Cetera's voice. This single would have been a big hit in 1980. I can't believe A&M killed this album.
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Post by cam83 on Mar 22, 2005 16:39:37 GMT -5
I know...it's shocking how they treated Karen thru this...It's like killing the goose for it's golden eggs...(or in her case...golden voice)...(well maybe killing the goose isn't the word...more like..."HURTING the goose for her GOLDEN voice!!")
Cam
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Post by Rick Henry on Mar 22, 2005 21:50:16 GMT -5
Hi All, Well, well, well! I guess I will add my thoughts too. I fully agree with everything Rick said. It IS a marvelous album! And you cannot judge it alongside a CARPENTERS album, because there are really no comparisons in that regard. Anyways, I love her album!! My thoughts, Cameron Cam, you are so right. You really can not compare Carpenters albums to Karen's solo. Karen's album is one thing. Carpenters are another. Both are excellent. Everything Karen was recorded was quality - including her solo album. Karen was too much of a musical perfectionist to record anything less than quality. I said earlier that "Voice Of The Heart" is inconsistent. I must apologize for that comment. I was just a bit worked up. Any of you who know me, know that I do get a bit protective of Karen's solo album. It is such a wonderful album and I don't like the fact that because of untruths and rumors started way back in 1980 a large amount of people are of the opinion that KC solo is a dud album. I'm sorry but the album is hot. It's full of fun and life. It represents our diva for who she was and what she wanted to be. She wanted to be fun. She wanted to break out of that shell which had been so protectively constructed around her by A&M and others in the Carpenters camp. As for "Voice Of The Heart", yes maybe it isn't the most consistent of Carpenters albums. But it is certainly a wonderful and beautiful record. I just love "Ordinary Fool", this is my favorite track from the album. It was recorded in 1976 for the album "A Kind Of Hush" but was not included on the album. Why they decided not to put this song on "A Kind Of Hush" is a mystery to me as it's probably better than most anything that did end up on AKOH. My second favorite from VOTH is "Prime Time Love" it has a wonderful 80's sort of synth rhythm. I also love "Now", "sailing On The Tide" and "You're Baby Doesn't Love You Anymore" are other highlights on the album. I know...it's shocking how they treated Karen thru this...It's like killing the goose for it's golden eggs...(or in her case...golden voice)...(well maybe killing the goose isn't the word...more like..."HURTING the goose for her GOLDEN voice!!") Cam Got to love you Cam. You are great.
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Post by karen69roland on Mar 22, 2005 22:14:24 GMT -5
Yes, Karen's solo album and *Voice Of The Heart* are very different..., they're both exquisite in their own way.
My favorite on *VOTH* is *Look To Your Dreams*..., there's really nothing like that song on Karen's solo album..., but, then again, there's nothing on *VOTH* like *My Body Keeps Changing My Mind* either..., very different trip. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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Post by shalalala on Mar 23, 2005 8:59:22 GMT -5
Well, I bought the album yesterday. And the more I listen to it, the more I like it.
It's definitely unlike anything Karen did with the Carpenters.
I do think that my initial reaction was correct: The strongest song, and the one with the most commercial appeal, is "Making Love in the Afternoon." I guarantee this would have been a hit single in 1980. (And kudos to the mastermind who paired Karen's voice with Peter Cetera's. Besides Richard Carpenter, I can't think of another male singer whose voice would mesh as nicely with Karen's.)
Other favorites from the LP are "Lovelines" (I've been humming the chorus to that song off and on all night), "If I Had You," "Still in Love with You" (her voice sounds great over those guitars) and the ever-catchy "My Body Keeps Changing My Mind."
While I like the album, and will probably grow to LOVE it, I am not convinced it would have been a huge success upon its release. For one thing, there is only one sure-fire single (OK, maybe two) on the record. (Rod Temperton's other project that year, Michael Jackson's "Off the Wall," was far superior.) Second, Karen's health obviously was a major issue; she would have been physically unable to tour or promote the album. And, in that same vein, it would have been released at a time when such artists as Olivia Newton-John were cashing in on their sex appeal. (Who can forget that sweaty "Physical" video?) And if A&M wasn't crazy about the album in the first place, do you think it would have gone out of its way to promote it? I don't think so, either.
That being said, I am so glad that Karen had the opportunity -- and the guts -- to record it. It's a crying shame that after all her hard work -- and all she had done for the label -- A&M rejected it.
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Post by Rick Henry on Mar 23, 2005 11:54:25 GMT -5
While I like the album, and will probably grow to LOVE it, I am not convinced it would have been a huge success upon its release. For one thing, there is only one sure-fire single (OK, maybe two) on the record. (Rod Temperton's other project that year, Michael Jackson's "Off the Wall," was far superior.) Second, Karen's health obviously was a major issue; she would have been physically unable to tour or promote the album. And, in that same vein, it would have been released at a time when such artists as Olivia Newton-John were cashing in on their sex appeal. (Who can forget that sweaty "Physical" video?) And if A&M wasn't crazy about the album in the first place, do you think it would have gone out of its way to promote it? I don't think so, either. I feel that if A&M were to have released the album they certainly would have promoted it like crazy. I don't think they would have let it fall through the cracks. If an album is going to be a hit it's the radio airplay that would do it, not so much the tour. I mean look at Steely Dan, they did only one tour in the 70's yet every album they released sold extremely well. As for hit singles I see three maybe four. "Making Love In The Afternoon" leads the pack. "If I Had You" would have been a huge hit and "Make Believe It's Your First Time" would have been the hit for tradition Carpenters listeners. Possibly "Guess I Just Lost My Head" or "All Because Of You" are other hits. There were still enough Carpenters fans in 1980 to atleast bring the album into the 30 upon initial release. And songs like "Making Love In The Afternoon" and "If I Had You" would attract new fans and push the album even higher. I certainly feel it would have been a solid hit and would have definitely caught the attention of the public big time.
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Post by cam83 on Mar 23, 2005 12:23:56 GMT -5
Also, they could have tried other musical genres...ALL BECAUSE OF YOU could be heavily promoted on the Country charts. STILL CRAZY could have been a top 20 hit. IF I HAD YOU and MAKING LOVE could have been Top 5 hits...with Making Love going Number One on the Adult Contemporary charts...and a dance remix of LOVELINES or REMEMBER WHEN LOVING going to the dance clubs...there is so much A&M could have done for Karen's release. But I think, they sat down with Richard...and then plans were underway to shelve Karen's project.
Cam
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Mar 23, 2005 20:32:55 GMT -5
I feel that if A&M were to have released the album they certainly would have promoted it like crazy. I don't think they would have let it fall through the cracks. If an album is going to be a hit it's the radio airplay that would do it, not so much the tour. I mean look at Steely Dan, they did only one tour in the 70's yet every album they released sold extremely well. As for hit singles I see three maybe four. "Making Love In The Afternoon" leads the pack. "If I Had You" would have been a huge hit and "Make Believe It's Your First Time" would have been the hit for tradition Carpenters listeners. Possibly "Guess I Just Lost My Head" or "All Because Of You" are other hits. There were still enough Carpenters fans in 1980 to atleast bring the album into the 30 upon initial release. And songs like "Making Love In The Afternoon" and "If I Had You" would attract new fans and push the album even higher. I certainly feel it would have been a solid hit and would have definitely caught the attention of the public big time. @@ @@ Rick, this poses the question, would A&M have known HOW to appropriately promote this CD, since it was Karen's solo effort? I think that may have been part of the entire shelving process. "..Hmmm..how DO we promote this thing..it ISN'T a Carpenters album - it's Karen's solo album..and what will people say/think if we promote Karen WITHOUT Richard?.." Something along those lines, maybe. I think they didn't quite know perhaps which way to go with the promo of the solo cd, because they hadn't done it before! Just a thought.
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Post by karen69roland on Mar 23, 2005 20:59:16 GMT -5
Rick, this poses the question, would A&M have known HOW to appropriately promote this CD, since it was Karen's solo effort? I think that may have been part of the entire shelving process. "..Hmmm..how DO we promote this thing..it ISN'T a Carpenters album - it's Karen's solo album..and what will people say/think if we promote Karen WITHOUT Richard?.." Something along those lines, maybe. I think they didn't quite know perhaps which way to go with the promo of the solo cd, because they hadn't done it before! Just a thought. Absolutely...
..., another factor to consider. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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