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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Feb 28, 2005 6:05:24 GMT -5
$% Dave and Enigma, you both bring up very interesting thoughts in your posts. Personally, I followed the lives of Karen and Richard as closely as a poor kid with little resources who lived in the midwest could. I was in the midst of beginning my own family at this point in their lives, and didn't get my hands on enough reading material to know what was truly going on with Karen until towards the end of her life. I didn't have time to read anyting, and work two jobs, and raise a family. Believe me when I tell you that I was stunned the day I heard of her death on the radio. What the heck did she die of I kept asking? I'd never heard of it before. Had we had the resources we now have - the Internet, for example, news would have been much easier to get in a timely fashion. But........would that have really made a difference? Would I have attempted to do something to help Karen? I'd dealt personally with trying to reach Karen in the past. I sat in my auto when they came to Springfield and watched Karen read the letter I had sent to her hotel room inviting she and anyone else to see the town they were playing in, should she chose to do so. I also watched her throw it in the trash, and roll her eyes. Of course, I was devastated. But, I understand it now. She didn't know but whether I was some lunatic (no sidebar comments here please ) but my point is - I didn't even get a reaction out of her in terms of interest in the letter she'd read - she just tossed it and rolled her eyes. How many people had tried to get through to her on some level? Had we (I) known she was in trouble, could I have gotten through? I certainly would have tried, no doubt about it. But I doubt that all my trying would have made any more difference, or created any more of a reaction than my letter did that I watched her read, and toss. Enigma is absolutely correct when he says she built a wall around herself. It was a wall with a moat to boot! Unpenetratable, I believe. The trust issue I agree with, too, Enigma. Karen didn't trust many - even those she DID trust, she didn't react to in a positive way when it came to this eating disorder. She lied to them, which is typical behavior we now know of the Anorexic. She lied to herself. Just as an alcoholic or any substance abuser does because that's the way to live with yourself if you're in that situation. I must say that I wish, with all my heart, I could have made a difference, or Rick or Dave or Enigma could have. But is it possible? I strongly doubt it. Just some early morning ponderings. ~all my best Tim @@
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Post by enigma on Feb 28, 2005 8:03:30 GMT -5
Wow Tim what an amazing story I feel bad for Karens reaction to your letter I would likely be devestated myself if I got that reaction. I would like to think Karen misinterpreted your letter and its message or was so consumed by her disease that she was not thinking straight or that you just caught her on a bad day any of which are possible but I am at a loss to really explain the reaction. I like hearing stories from people who have encounters with Karen I feel I get a more real picture of who she was than in interviews especially with the inner circle I always feel they are holding something back because of fear or reprecussions from Richard. I also think Karens wall she built around herself got bigger and harder to penetrate like Tim said a moat was dug around it. I am glad you forgave Karen for her insensitivity at that time It does not seem typical of her personality to do that unless all I know about Karen was just an act.
Dave I like the term you used "Learned behavior" that is exactly what I was getting at when I said Karens family dealt with her eating disorder like they had dealt with everything before I think you explained it a little better than I did but we were talking about the same thing. Nice analogy on that it seems to fit Karens situation.
&^ *%
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Post by karen69roland on Feb 28, 2005 14:52:31 GMT -5
Tim..., you don't(didn't) have to worry about that letter you wrote..., Karen had A LOT of letters from fans..., and, maybe, like Enigma said, she was having a bad day..., or to be more precise, a bad hour.
I would've never had the guts to do what you did (it's not in my personality)..., but, I still like you story. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Feb 28, 2005 19:40:56 GMT -5
Roland, what I didn't have the guts to do was get out of the car and tell her it was me that actually wrote the letter she'd just tossed. I was sitting no farther than 4 yards away from her. You can see how close I was if you look at the picture - it's posted on our board. I wish....oh how I wish I'd have just been one of "those" fans and just gotten out of the car, introduced myself, and talked with her. But, THAT wasn't in MY nature. I couldn't insinuate myself on her, having just arrived and all. I just couldn't do that. I just had to believe she WAS, indeed, having a bad day. I knew they'd just driven in from Columbia, where they'd played the night before - about a 3 hour drive from Springfield. I made myself believe she was tired, and wanted to rest up before the show she would do for us in Springfield that evening. Otherwise.......I would have been absolutely crushed beyond words. I know (now) she wasn't being mean - believe me. But, it hurt at the time. I felt like I'd just been proverbially dumped. But it wasn't her fault. I was angry and confused about it for a long time - but my love for Karen overcame any anger I ever held towards her. Sorry to stray so from the initial post, but That's my story. Tim
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Feb 28, 2005 19:51:39 GMT -5
$% Dave, thanks buddy. You're so insightful. Oh yeah, I went through a range of emotions, believe me. You expressed it well. But, read the post just before yours..it explains what I felt, a little. Thanks, man. You're such a hoot, ya big lunatic, ya!(wink)! ~All my best, Tim
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Post by enigma on Mar 1, 2005 8:35:43 GMT -5
Dave Hmm Spaghetti eh Karens favorite dish coincidence I think not good thing you ate it if I were in Karens circle I would have to yell at you and make you eat like they tried to do with Karen. Poor souls they were so lost when it came to dealing with eating disorders. Tim I am not sure what would have happened if you got out of the car and announced yourself to Karen. It was all for the best what you did do not torment yourself with regret. It was not a matter of showing guts it was a matter of respecting Karens space and after all you knew who she was but like each and every one of us here you did not know Karen and you would no more want to approach her than some stranger on the street. Besides there is no way you could have predicted her reaction had you approached her it may have been worse than throwing away a letter. I know I would be too shy and uncomfortable approaching Karen she would still be a stranger to me. Just some thoughts here. BTW im where is the picture you are referring to what topic or area of the board is it located in?
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Mar 1, 2005 9:12:13 GMT -5
@@ Rick posted the photo on the Carpenters photo page, I believe, Enigma. Tim
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Post by karen69roland on Mar 1, 2005 17:42:52 GMT -5
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Mar 1, 2005 20:43:14 GMT -5
@@ Roland, yes - that's the one. I told Rick in an email to him that it's ironic - I now work just across a field from this Holiday Inn and pass it every day. The back half - that is, the block that the Carpenters had reserved, and where Karen and the other band members are standing in front of, are now crammed full of old broken furniture, and the whole building is in need of rennovation. I look at it and ponder, knowing it was once a flourishing business - and the IMPORTANCE it held for me, even though the experience didn't turn out like I'd planned - I HAD THE EXPERIENCE, and I was THAT close to Karen, Richard and the band......and then I think of how ironic it is that it is now nothing......old, in need of repair, and no longer usable - and, hence, Karen is no longer with us. Ah yes, bittersweet irony somehow. And Dave - NO, I didn't retrieve my letter - Karen had opened her door, and apparently someone had put it on her night stand. She read it immediately, standing in the doorway of the photo Roland posted on this page. I remember writing it on very good quality linen paper, with a gold envelope. It all went into HER trash can in her room. The last thing on my mind was going back for it - their concert was that night, and I had to go get ready for it. Hearing that beautiful voice (Skyles and Henderson fronted them at the time) made all the (well most of) the disappointment go away. But for years I mused of how it might have gone. (wink)!
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Post by karen69roland on Mar 2, 2005 8:20:03 GMT -5
Since she did it inside her room, the odds become 50-50 that she thought better of it and retrieved the letter and kept it. That's very nice of you Dave..., I'm pretty sure she did.
Note, also, that this pic of yours, Tim, gives the illusion that you were less closer than you really were..., I'm sure you can confirm that. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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Post by enigma on Mar 2, 2005 10:35:24 GMT -5
Spaghetti was Karen's favorite dish?!!! You see, I learned something new today. I love coincidences, Enigma. They happen to me all of the time. For instance, read the "Song Of The Day" I posted Monday evening. This happens to me all of the time. But anyway... I totally agree with you that Tim did the right thing by not getting out of the car to introduce himself. No matter which way I run this scenario, there are no good outcomes, only bad! A "worst-case" has one of the band members feel that Karen is threatened, resulting in physical action. On the whole, I'd say that everything turned out just fine. You're here with us lunatics, and the only scars were mental, and you've gotten well over them. But you never told us if you went back and retrieved your missive. I learned my lesson about interacting with the rich and famous from actor Judd Hirsch in the Zagreb airport on an August morning in 1983. Since then, I always give them as much distance as I can create safely. They get "pinged on" by everyone, and I refuse to add my voice to the babble. Enigma, I'll send you a picture I had taken at work, that shows me standing next to Chris, a 34 year old fellow engineer, who happens to be 5'4", and 140 lbs. As you'll see, I need to reduce my caloric intake somewhat and perform something more strenuous than walking. Now, if Karen was alive and we could swap diets, then maybe we'd have something! If you had Karens diet you would have nothing or next to it that is of course unless you had laxatives for desert unfortuneate but true. (Hope that doesn't offend too much). Sometimes Dave I think I know way too much about Karen it kind of weird cosidering I have never seen or met her in person I mean favorite foods, colours, flowers, perfume where does it end? You may have something with that lunatic thing Dave (wink...lol) Anyhow I was more going along the lines of Karens reaction which would be more hurtful then the most severe beating that her staff could give him if she chose to react negatively towards Tim physical wounds heal mental or emotional ones not so easily. The thing is I have heard of encounters with fans where they approached Karen even when she was alone and got a possative response as well as those encounters where Karen got spooked and avoided contact with them I don't think there was any way of knowing how Karen would react when approached Karen was so...human. Interesting picture Tim I saw this on other sites and never knew it was by a member here. &^ *%
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Mar 2, 2005 13:56:58 GMT -5
$% Roland Yes, I was in the car, at the curb of the sidewalk Karen is standing on - so the photo was actually taken through the front window, giving the illusion that I was farther away.
And I'm sure you're right - both you and Dave - Karen retrieved the letter, read it later, and kept it in her keepsakes. (nice thought, anyway).
Always a pleasure, Tim @@
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Mar 2, 2005 18:11:29 GMT -5
$% Wow! Dave, how beautiful that is. Thank you. I'd never ever even thought that through - and certainly not to that conclusion. But, that's the one I'll hold on to.
You brought tears to my eyes, dude!
Thanks, more than you know.
Tim @@
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Post by Rick Henry on Mar 3, 2005 2:17:51 GMT -5
excellent Dave. What an interesting theory to Tim's letter to Karen. That's definitely a good one to hold on to. And you just never know that could be what happened. Just because something is thrown in the trash doesn't mean it will remain there.
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