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Post by Rick Henry on Feb 19, 2005 12:52:10 GMT -5
All of us on this forum know that the Carpenters produce music of the highest quality and that Karen is undoubtedly one of the finest vocalists of all time. So here's my question. If this is the case why were music critics so harsh to the Carpenters in the '70's? Did they really deserve all the negative press they received? I don't really understand it. Because if any of these critics were to have sat down and really listened to any one of the Carpenterts albums. I mean really listen to the musicianship, the songwriting, the pristine arrangements, and Karen's fabulous voice. They would have rated each album much higher than they did. But often times they called the music boring and lacking substance. Many times on a five star rating system they would give C's album one or even zero stars. I remember someone once said they don't make any social comments in their music. I thought this was ridiculous because not all music has to make a social comment to be good or relevant. "Top Of The World" doesn't make any social comment but it is a well written song and makes a comment to me. When I hear the song, the lyrics, I get a good and happy feeling inside. "We've Only Just Begun" may not make any outright social comments but the song has become a part of our culture. It is one of the finest written and well crafted love songs ever in the history of music. Any other thoughts on this subject?
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Post by enigma on Feb 19, 2005 15:12:29 GMT -5
You have to understand the time at which the Carpenters came out to see why they were criticised. First most of the critics of the time either grew up in the 60's or lived through them and in the 60's there was a great deal of political and message based music being produced. By the early 70's when the Carpenters made it big America was in the Viet Nam war later there was watergate and a whole administration fell. Continuing in the 60's tradition alot of early 70's music was politically charged. There were war protests, energy crisis' and major political and social change occurring. The Carpenters come in and sing about love, have lush, polished arrangements and a soft beautiful singer to boot. This was in direct conflict with what was going on at the time the world was more gritty and was not at all like the Carpenters were singing love la de da everything is so swell. They were unfairly criticised and I do not think it had to do with the music at all it was to do with the image the Carpenters put forward. While music had polotics sex and drugs the Carpenters were none of these things and hence open to ridicule because their wholesome image, message and soft sound were out of sinc with the times. The most ironic thing I find however is that the Beatles were hailed as rock royalty even early on and the sang mostly about love only later did John Lennon inject polotics into Beatles music yet those early albums full of love songs are still hailed as the best music by critics but they wont give the Carpenters much credit and they sang about the same thing the early Beatles did and had two gifted performers just like the Beatles did (actually all the Beatles were gifted in their own way but McCartney Lennon were seen as the most talented by most people). Just a few reasons that may explain why the Carpenters were criticised so much.
&^ *%
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Feb 19, 2005 23:21:45 GMT -5
$% Rick Can you picture Karen and Richard trying to do something at Woodstock? No - of course not! Now, according to the music critics at the time, THAT was what the music of the time was all about. Here were two kids - a brother and sister, to boot - who made these wonderfully beautiful songs, did photo shoots together that, though they were tastefully done, still depicted two clean cut, wholesome youngsters - they weren't wearing dirty clothes with greasy hair and there were no psychadelic images anywhere. So how could they possibly be any good or make any contributions to the music of the day? It was WRONG to have judged Carpenters the way they were judged - and based on all that crud I mentioned above. They were supposed to be getting critiqued on the music they were doing, not the image...but it seemed to be image, image, image that was in the forefront. They couldn't get a break from that. And, unfortunately, that influenced heavily the critics viewpoint of the music. I can't imagine that anyone really DID sit and listen carefully to these masterfully crafted pieces of art....so beautifully done. It was "music" at it's finest. They were not given their due for the music, for certain. It makes me angry that even today, Carpenters are not mentioned as they should be. There should be a montage at the Grammy awards often about the wonderful music that was (is) Carpenters music - and as you said about WOJB being a part of our history and culture at this point - Carpenters are an icon in our culture, and many of their songs are iconic. Yet, time and time again, they continue to be reviewed as "that group" who did the syrupy sweet, cutsie pop songs of the 70's. When, in fact, what they did was way beyond their years - it was pop, but also adult contemporary music, and that is the bottom line - it was quite obviously music - good music - it wasn't gimic-y. It wasn't just something to please the establishment. I could go on and on, as it was total injustice what kinds of things we read (and continue to read) about Carpenters and their music, when, in fact, they were two of the finest musicians of the age. Good topic - just wish we could be writing more about all the appropriate "praise" they got...and it's certainly about time they started getting that praise for what they "did", musically. And their contribution to our current society goes without speaking. All one need do is look around to know that Karen and Richard were much more influencial on our culture than they were ever given credit for. Better close before I get too wound up!!!!! ~Best to everyone. Tim
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Post by Rick Henry on Feb 19, 2005 23:23:38 GMT -5
Many good points brought up here. It's really too bad that the Carpenters' music was reviewed more for the image instead of the actual music. Rolling Stone magazine rated "Horizon" very low. That really gets me because "Horizon" is truly a classic album. The musicianship and musical arrangements are outstanding. The sound quality is crisp, clear, and sophisticated. And then there's Karen's vocals. She was in her finest vocal form on this album. I just don't understand why Rolling Stone would rate the album so low and why even some critics just ignored this album all together. But I guess it goes back to the image thing. By 1975 the whole image of the modern pop star was changing. And the Carpenters' image was still out of the mode. Still too homespun. And even with the hint of Karen's new somewhat sexy image on the cover of "Horizon" critics just still did not seem interested. Though beyond all the negative reviews from critics. The Carpenters still continued to put out hit after hit. And their albums continued to sell in large numbers. They were extremely consistent up until mid 1976 and even then every single they released (while Karen was alive) made the top 100. I believe the Carpenters were the only artists (in the 70's) whose entire release of singles made Billboard's U.S. Top 100 singles chart. And regardless of how much critics bashed the Carpenters they all also agreed that Karen Carpenter was an above average singer and that she could really sing. Several critics even referred to her as gifted.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Feb 19, 2005 23:34:23 GMT -5
$% Yes, at least they could admit that Karen was a truly talented, gifted singer. And Richard's musical prowess is amazing, as well. The Carpenters have a "fan base" that is truly outstanding, and who do very much appreciate what they have done for American music. We can all agree that Karen and Richard are outstanding musicians, and that their music made significant impacts on our lives. ~~All the best! Tim
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Post by smoothie2 on Feb 20, 2005 1:00:18 GMT -5
Very well answered by all of you...I agree with all that's been said.. Karen and Richard came through with just excellent songs...very different for those times in the world. It really is a wonder, not because they weren't great...but it's a wonder that the world did hear them and made them so tremendous since so much negative stuff was going on... They surely did not at all deserve all the criticism. */ I just want to point out too that fans surely helped make the C's who they were..or at least so popular in music but R. and K. were tremendous because they were so brilliantly talented. And not all the stuff..changes that went on back then were negative by far.
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Post by Rick Henry on Feb 20, 2005 1:31:24 GMT -5
Yes, at least they could admit that Karen was a truly talented, gifted singer. And Richard's musical prowess is amazing, as well. The Carpenters have a "fan base" that is truly outstanding, and who do very much appreciate what they have done for American music. We can all agree that Karen and Richard are outstanding musicians, and that their music made significant impacts on our lives. ~~All the best! Tim Yes, the Carpenters' fan base is outstanding. Carpenters have certainly developed a very dedicated fan base which continues to grow to this very day. despite the negative criticism they received in the 70's Carpenters have outlasted many others who were popular in their time. They have certainly proved the critics wrong. It ends up that Carpenters music is classic and timeless.
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Post by Moe on Feb 20, 2005 8:31:19 GMT -5
Most of the music I listen to has been slammed by critics from one generation or another. I hear something and if I like it, I buy it and enjoy it, regardless of was others say.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Feb 20, 2005 10:13:08 GMT -5
Most of the music I listen to has been slammed by critics from one generation or another. I hear something and if I like it, I buy it and enjoy it, regardless of was others say. Well stated, Moe. I have to agree. But, it does cause me great angst to recall all of the negative publicity that Karen and Richard had to endure. We had to endure it right along with them, as their fans. I suppose I did pay some attention to what was being said - because of the injustice of it all. I remember writing letters to editors of magazines attempting to explain what they were missing - about the MUSIC.....but they all fell on deaf ears. I believe they kept going, however, because they knew what they were doing was outstanding - their musicianship was not to be questioned. And, despite what the critics said, there were and are still many many people who get it about Karen and Richard's musical talent, and the tremendous collection of songs that they were able to bring to us - all masterfully crafted and beautiful. ~Best Tim
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Post by cam83 on Feb 20, 2005 13:38:29 GMT -5
Also, I would like to add. Their musical peers thought a lot about them, for the most part. Even Bette Midler came around back in the early 1990's as admiring them and saying Karen did have talent...Many celebrities enjoyed the Carpenters and their musical styles. Olivia Newton John, Captain and Tenille, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, B J Thomas, Dionne Warwick, Barbra Streisand, 5th Dimension, Rita Coolidge, John Davidson, John Denver, and many others. And THAT voice! Even today performers, will mention that voice...how she could have sung ANYTHING! That's how gifted she was.
I think though by the mid 1970's it seems that they were changing their image or attempting to do that. HORIZON album doesn't feature their perky happy looks. Even the way Karen started to wear more revealing outfits, and wore her hair a bit differently. Please Mr Postman video shoot, they look good there, more in step it seems with their contemporaries...at what was "HIP" then.
It must have been hard to cope with critics who said their music was unfashionable. It WAS different than anything going on then. If something was similar to another artist, the Carpenters standards and professionalism pushed it up leagues ahead. But the reality is that, Karen and Richard had to live with it. It was very unfair, but on the other hand, their records sold in the millions worldwide and in the USA. People were still buying their releases, although not as high in the US as 1976 onwards.
My thoughts, Cameron
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Post by Rick Henry on Feb 21, 2005 11:29:09 GMT -5
Also, I would like to add. Their musical peers thought a lot about them, for the most part. Even Bette Midler came around back in the early 1990's as admiring them and saying Karen did have talent...Many celebrities enjoyed the Carpenters and their musical styles. Olivia Newton John, Captain and Tenille, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, B J Thomas, Dionne Warwick, Barbra Streisand, 5th Dimension, Rita Coolidge, John Davidson, John Denver, and many others. And THAT voice! Even today performers, will mention that voice...how she could have sung ANYTHING! That's how gifted she was. Hi Cam, interesting comments. For every celebrity that said they admired the Carpenters in the 70's (while Karen was still alive) there was one that said they didn't like them and even ridiculed them publicly. Even bette Midler did not take back what she said about Karen until years after her death. You had to live during this time period to feel the full impact of what was going on. Many many people were slamming the Carpenters. I'd say they were easily the most disliked (or maybe the most criticized) group of the 70's. They were put down so much that people who liked their music were afraid to say so. If you did say you liked Carpenters you were branded as uncool. And buying a Carpenters record was another story. I remember when I purchased "Now And Then" in 1975 (I already had the 8-track - which I received as a Christmas gift). But when I went to buy the record album the girl at the counter said, "You really want to buy this record. It's all oldies done by the Carpenters - the originals are much better". It was all over the place. Lukewarm reviews from critics. Kids at school made fun of the Carpenters. Radio DJ's making derogatory comments about Carpenters right after playing their songs. I mean it went on and on. I can't remember any one group in the history of music that received as much criticism as the Carpenters did. It wasn't until karen's death that people actually began rethinking their stance on the Carpenters. But what really changed people's viewpoint was the release of "If I Were A Carpenter" in 1980-90. And even more so the television documentaries that were produced in 1997-98 by A&E, VH1, PBS, and E!TV. By that time it was finally okay to say you like the Carpenters and not be ridiculed for it. Now I feel the Carpenters are widely accepted for being one of the finest groups ever in the history of music. But in the 70's the picture was much different.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Feb 21, 2005 12:10:05 GMT -5
You had to live during this time period to feel the full impact of what was going on. Many many people were slamming the Carpenters. I'd say they were easily the most disliked (or maybe the most criticized) group of the 70's. They were put down so much that people who liked their music were afraid to say so. If you did say you liked Carpenters you were branded as uncool. And buying a Carpenters record was another story. I remember when I purchased "Now And Then" in 1975 (I already had the 8-track - which I received as a Christmas gift). But when I went to buy the record album the girl at the counter said, "You really want to buy this record. It's all oldies done by the Carpenters - the originals are much better". It was all over the place. Lukewarm reviews from critics. Kids at school made fun of the Carpenters. Radio DJ's making derogatory comments about Carpenters right after playing their songs. I mean it went on and on. I can't remember any one group in the history of music that received as much criticism as the Carpenters did. It wasn't until karen's death that people actually began rethinking their stance on the Carpenters. But what really changed people's viewpoint was the release of "If I Were A Carpenter" in 1980-90. And even more so the television documentaries that were produced in 1997-98 by A&E, VH1, PBS, and E!TV. By that time it was finally okay to say you like the Carpenters and not be ridiculed for it. Now I feel the Carpenters are widely accepted for being one of the finest groups ever in the history of music. But in the 70's the picture was much different. $% Bravo, Rick!!! Couldn't have said it any better. Well captured and stated.
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Post by cam83 on Feb 21, 2005 16:51:51 GMT -5
Hi Rick, No I understand at how uncool they were. Even back in 1988 and onwards I would be ridiculed by a lot of people, adults and peers who couldn't actually believe I liked the Carpenters. They thought I was weird. But I was used to it. I would always say, How could I not like or appreciate THAT voice. I remember once giving a speech in my Grade 11 English Class on the Carpenters. That was my presentation. It took a lot of guts to talk about them, but I didn't mind them. I think being a FIRST NATION person, helped me overcome other things, instead of worrying all the time what others thought of me. I just did what I had to do. And that was liking the Carpenters music. I played their music in the background, passed photos around and gave a 10 minute talk on the history of the Carpenters. As a result, I got a good mark in that class. So I know what it is like to be uncool, by listening to their music.
Cam
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Post by Rick Henry on Feb 21, 2005 23:57:52 GMT -5
Hi Rick, No I understand at how uncool they were. Even back in 1988 and onwards I would be ridiculed by a lot of people, adults and peers who couldn't actually believe I liked the Carpenters. They thought I was weird. But I was used to it. I would always say, How could I not like or appreciate THAT voice. I remember once giving a speech in my Grade 11 English Class on the Carpenters. That was my presentation. It took a lot of guts to talk about them, but I didn't mind them. I think being a FIRST NATION person, helped me overcome other things, instead of worrying all the time what others thought of me. I just did what I had to do. And that was liking the Carpenters music. I played their music in the background, passed photos around and gave a 10 minute talk on the history of the Carpenters. As a result, I got a good mark in that class. So I know what it is like to be uncool, by listening to their music. Cam $% Love you Cam! You really are a neat person. You have a gentle yet strong spirit. And yes in 1988 it was still very uncool to like the Carpenters. The TV movie in 1989 and the subsequent tribute album and documentaries finally made it acceptable to like the Carpenters as a legitimate musical act.
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Post by cam83 on Feb 22, 2005 2:58:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess we all had to march to the beat of a distant but different drum. Pardon the pun. But Karen's music just gives me everything I need to sustain myself. I feel better when I hear that voice. I can sing along if I want to. Or when I see a visual of her on video...she brings a smile to my face. I imagine all the things she could have done. So much more!! I always feel that in addition to finding her soulmate, she would have had several kids, in addition to exploring other facets of the entertainment industry. It's a shame she had to die, but I guess that is life...living and dying. But if she only knew how much people adored her. I am sure she would think that's "a gas." And she is remembered as a "nice person" as she wanted to be remembered by.
Cam
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Mariah Andrews
CERTIFIED SILVER MEMBER
29/Lesbian M2F TS/Nevada. Longtime Carpenters Fan.
Posts: 49
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Post by Mariah Andrews on Feb 22, 2005 3:18:53 GMT -5
Critics were pinning the tail on the donkey with the Carpenters, mainly because of their high standards and it was during a time when pop music stars were lowering their standards, selling out to all the sexuality and drug promotions, etc. That was in. A singer who had a lousy voice but pulls her skirt up onstage (showing it all) would get rave reviews, yet an innocently dressed, beautifully voiced Karen Carpenter would get the boos from critics.
Well, if I was Karen or Richard, I would have said, that's too ****ing bad. I wouldn't want your fanship if that's what you desire of me!
Another band I loved a lot from that era is Queen. They had also been given terrible press because of their high standards, as opposed to other bands in their genre. Queen didn't score big until they sold out with sexuality in 1978 with their Jazz album, that featured 50 naked girls on bikes. Their "News Of The World" disc also had songs that were sexual in nature the previous year. But to me, all albums from Queen I to A Day At The Races were their best.
What I admire most about the Carpenters is that they never sold out, like other artists did just to sell major records. And I personally understand why Karen didn't carry on with relasing the solo album, although I thought it was still a good set of songs.
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Post by enigma on Feb 22, 2005 6:40:38 GMT -5
You can tell by my posts that I am in the different drum catagory but Cam I can realte to atot of what you said in you posts here.
I was around at the time of the Carpenters and went through the great backlash to their music. The Carpenters were not alone in unfair criticism but seemed to be slammed the most. I have been a Carpenters fan for almost my entire life and I have never found anyone who likes them except in cyberspace. No one has Carpenter records or cds that I know whether it classmates, coworkers, or friends and family. I went to school all around Canada and never found a fan yet (though there are some in cyberspace). Unlike Cam I took the opposite approach to dealing with the C's I became a huge closet fan of theirs I am the person who would put a Carpenters record in a Led Zepplin sleeve (though I di not actually do that)just to hide the fact I liked them. One undeniable fact was Karens voice invoked emotion in me it found a connection to a place nobody elses did not always happy sometimes sad but a connection nonetheless. I never got angry at the critics like Tim did because as far as I was concerned the critics were like everyone else I really beleived that they did not get the Carpenters thats why they did not like them. I am used to standing alone so it did not matter if I was the only Carpenters fan in the universe I would still love them. It is a crime that Karen died when she did if only because I felt there was so much she still could have done but was unable to but as Cam said we have to accept that as being part of life.
Cam I think Karen knew how much people loved her and as for now I hope she does.
Mariah It is up to you if you believe that Karen willingly put her solo record on the shelf there is too much evidence and testimony that makes this statement untrue and I will leave it at that. I beleive Karen wanted that released but was denied the opportunity just my opinion is all.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Feb 22, 2005 12:12:19 GMT -5
$% This has turned out to be a really interesting and thought provoking topic. Cam, Enigma, I can truly appreciate where you're coming from. I think one thing that differentiates our feelings about this subject is our age difference. I was a Sophomore in High School when the Carpenters came out. Granted, I went to a private, very small school right here in Springfield, MO - what some people refer to as the "buckle of the bible belt." We were very conservative people, here. Can't get much more conservative than life here. I had a distinct advantage over a lot of others (many of you, included) because I didn't live in a big city - what I'm trying to say is, I think Carpenters music was definitely much more readily accepted here in this very conservative part of the country than it was on the coasts, or in Canada, or many other places. I was never a closet fan, but as I've expressed in other posts - I didn't have to be. As a known musician, I was "allowed", if you will, to like whomever I wanted. And, as a single act, it was much easier to do Carpenters tunes than it was to do Pink Floyd or some of the other more popular groups of the time. So, from that perspective, I had it different than you did. Yes, I got angry with the critics - but, Enigma, you make me see that maybe that was because I was so sheltered here - I mean, I knew the criticism was out there - but it was not as prevelant here in Missouri as it was other places. I heard and read about it, and it disgusted me....because like Mariah said, much of it was because the Carpenters did not sell out - they did not try and bring sex into their act just to gain acceptance. They simply performed flawlessly night after night, and recorded beautiful songs - but I did not have to live with the day-to-day critics the way some of you had to. I can only imagine how rough that was. Rick, I think you mentioned how horrible it was there on the west coast. I can only imagine how tough that must have been. It's just a darned shame that it took so long for K and R to be recognized for the musical geniuses they were (are). Happy to be a part of this forum and to be able to share these thoughts~ Tim
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