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Post by GoodOldDreams on Apr 1, 2006 13:30:05 GMT -5
There have been some previous commentaries about the element of "edginess" --- a certain raw, energetic and seemingly all-out unrestrained quality --- in some of the Carpenters' music, most notably the unusual incorporation of Tony Peluso's fuzz guitar in "Goodbye to Love." However, there have been a few previous hints of how the Carpenters can go beyond the soft rock sound for which they are primarily known for. The Carpenters' rendition of "Help" is a amped-up version of the Beatles' hit, and the refrain of "Hurting Each Other" is a startling contrast to the gentle verses of the ballad. What are your feelings about these and other musical forays?
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Post by Carps1000 on Apr 1, 2006 13:32:16 GMT -5
The Cs could esily go from soft love songs to Edgy hardish rock. Karens voice could do almost anything. Ken c10000
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Post by Rick Henry on Apr 1, 2006 21:26:15 GMT -5
The Cs could esily go from soft love songs to Edgy hardish rock. Karens voice could do almost anything. Ken c10000 Ha! ha! How funny Ken - the Carpenters edgy hard rockers.
Anyway though, GoodOldDreams excellent topic and this is one I want to explore further - so I will be posting a more detailed thread when I have more time later tonight.
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Post by smoothie2 on Apr 1, 2006 23:50:52 GMT -5
:-/Hi G.Old dreams...during the time I read your post, the songs you mentioned also came to my mind. The C's I suppose you might say...are extremists musically in that they tackled and succeded from one extreme to another.... such as ..."Close to You" ...quite some difference compared to G. to Love.. Everybody when G. to Love came out were rather surprised and many disapproved that guitar bit...I myself when that came out, really was so used to their softer sound, that I didn't care for that guitar.... with time though, I came to really like it. Perhaps another example of an edgier song would be Tryin' to Get the Feeling...again the music is quite bold and yet Karen has no trouble putting her own "stamp" on it.
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Post by makapip on Apr 1, 2006 23:57:15 GMT -5
California Dreamin, Karen can belt this one out.
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Post by Rick Henry on Apr 2, 2006 3:54:14 GMT -5
The way I see this, is this topic can go in a few directions. There's the "edgy" angle and then there's the "experimental" angle. Now the Carpenters weren't experimental like say Brian Eno and Kraftwerk were. Though in their own reality of American Classic Pop they often times crossed the boundaries and mixed things into their music that generally was not commonplace for such a mellow pop act.
I think a lot of times Richard's (and Karen's) sense of experimentation dates back to their earliest days as a jazz trio in 1965 with Wes Jacobs playing the tuba. Not many bands (in 1965) had a tuba player in it - but the Richard Carpenter Trio did. They achieved critical acclaim with this (what I feel was an outstanding) instrumental jazz trio. Their time signatures were quirky and their musicianship was excellent. Karen Carpenter was a fantastic drummer. In 1965 Karen certainly caught the attention of quite a few people for the sheer fact that she was a female drummer - and that she was actually quite proficient - and at the young age of 15.
... And this is the beginning of an entire body of recorded work. I will continue with this tomorrow. As I do want to touch on some of my favorite edgier (and also somewhat experimental) songs of the Carpenters.
Before I go I will touch on the groundbreaking song "Goodbye To Love". To this day this song is used somewhat as an example of outstanding guitar work in a pop song. Tony Peluso's guitar solo is very well known and respected throughout the world. When I first heard this song I loved it. I never once thought urgh a guitar solo in Carpenters music. I guess that's because I grew up with guitar music in my family. My father played guitar and us kids sang along with him. He generally played Kingston Trio. I also enjoyed the Beatles tremendously. Tony Peluso's fuzz guitar solo just did not seem out of place to me. It fit right in with the entire mood and feel of the song. I feel the solo turnde the song into a grandiose work.
"Goodbye To Love" is an example of how Carpenters weren't just your average pop group. Their music, the music arrangements, the vocal arrangements, the overall sound of their music went just a step further than most of their contemporaries.
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Post by GoodOldDreams on Apr 2, 2006 16:15:44 GMT -5
All well said! You made a good point that this discussion can go in a few directions. I will focus on some of the "experimental" aspects for now. Especially in their early formative years, the Carpenters were in a prime position to be more experimental and explore their potential niches as they sought to establish a wide-ranging audience for their distinctive approaches and unique alchemy in music. Unfortunately, the music industry tended to pigeon-hole people into specific genres then more so than now. The Carpenters were inspired by the concept of overdubbing from Les Paul and Mary Ford from an earlier era and elevated it to a high art form, expanding the technical and artistic possibilities of a duo. In their vast body work of exquisite vocal harmonies, their music ranged from the melodious barbershop quartet-style a cappella treatment of the pop standard "Without a Song" to the 32-part ramped-up harmonies of "I'll Never Fall in Love Again." Even though Richard was not involved in its production, "If I had You" is the ultimate "wall-of-sound" gem that can be attributed in part to the heavy influence of his many years of exploring the layering of complex vocal harmonies. The use of off-beat humor is an interesting, if not sometimes risky, surprise in some of the Carpenters' albums, such as "Intermission," "Goofus," "Man Smart, Woman Smarter" and Tony Peluso's turn as manic DJ on "Calling Occupants" and the medley of oldies on the "Then" side of their fourth album. I think the seemingly befuddled Tony Peluso provided wonderful contexts for the accompanying songs. Of course, the Carpenters were inventive in developing the concept of bookending thematically-related songs on albums: "Now and Then," "Horizons," "A Song for You," and "Benediction/Offering." Overall, the album "Passage" seems to be their most adventuresome album, incorporating elements of Broadway, jazz, simple ballads, social satire and even potential outer-space encounters!
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Post by Rick Henry on Apr 3, 2006 21:39:12 GMT -5
Now to zero in on a few specific songs.
"Another Song" (1970) - this is one of the Carpenters' most creative and artistic tunes in their entire body of work. Several Carpenters fans are bothered by the extended instrumental ending. Myself, I see it as a musical triumph. A friend of mine (when I played the song for him in 1988) said it reminded him (musically) of John McLaughlin and the Mahavishnu Orchestra. That was a big compliment as the Mahavishnu Orchestra is well respected for their abstract jazz-fusion sounds.
"B'wana She No Home" (1977) - Again the Carpenters prove they just are not your ordinary pop band. Their musical tastes and styles extend further than your traditional pop standards. Richard (and Karen) had an ear for the abstract, the esoteric, the deep, the dark. "B'wana She No Home" possesses all these qualities. The song is somewhat mysterious in it's upbeat jazz-rock sound. I especially like the intricate electric guitar work - which, most of, can be missed if you're not listening closely. The song is weaved together quite well. I really like Karen's attitude on this song - and I truly feel she was very happy to be recording a song of this nature. What makes the song even more of a treat - is that it truly is extremely well done musically. The Carpenters were inspired by the concept of overdubbing from Les Paul and Mary Ford from an earlier era and elevated it to a high art form, expanding the technical and artistic possibilities of a duo. In their vast body work of exquisite vocal harmonies, their music ranged from the melodious barbershop quartet-style a cappella treatment of the pop standard "Without a Song" to the 32-part ramped-up harmonies of "I'll Never Fall in Love Again." Even though Richard was not involved in its production, "If I had You" is the ultimate "wall-of-sound" gem that can be attributed in part to the heavy influence of his many years of exploring the layering of complex vocal harmonies. That's another great aspect of Carpenters music. The layered vocal effect. Others have experimented (and quite successfully) with overdubbing vocals. But none, I feel, have taken it to the level that the Carpenters did. Firstly, it helps that Karen Carpenter is one of the finest vocalists to ever grace this earth. Though, Richard's technology and engineering of the dubbed layered vocals was outstanding. He used this technique from their very first album with the a capella bookend pieces "Invocation" and "Benediction". It was only two voices yet Richard's arrangement made it sound like it was a choral choir. This was very cutting edge in 1969 and quite uncommon for anybody to be recording this type of sound - but the Carpenters were not afraid to stick their necks out a little further than the others.
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Post by smoothie2 on Apr 3, 2006 23:33:21 GMT -5
Great in-depth analysis by everyone...Very Interesting....Wonderful thoughts too on the experimental directions of their songs. Richard and Karen and all those involved in all their works ...are really beyond superb... A League of their own...Absolutely! I would've loved to hear the C's do so many other Beatles songs (and many others by many artists) ..... Another song on the edgier side from their medley of oldies... "Johnny B. Goode"....a truly "out-of-control" whammie!!
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Post by smoothie2 on Apr 3, 2006 23:40:58 GMT -5
California Dreamin, Karen can belt this one out. Makapip...just wanted to say Cal. Dreamin is also a great example! I had not thought about it...It's the only other version aside from the Mamas and the Papas version , that I've ever heard and I guess you could say that was "an edgy" as well as experimental number.
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Post by Rick Henry on Apr 4, 2006 20:22:35 GMT -5
Continuing this discussion...
For their 1969 album the Carpenters' direction was somewhat different from what they ended up becoming. With "Offering" the Carpenters gave us a variety of styles, rhythms, textures and sounds. I feel Karen and Richard's range of music interests was quite broad. This range of interest helped Carpenters developed into a well balanced pop/rock group. They have always used instruments and sounds not common for the typical easylistening or standard ballads band. I love a great ballad but Carpenters were much more than ballads. This is what makes the whole of the Carpenters and also what makes them an interesting musical entity.
On "Offering" they featured the song "Now-A-Days Clancy Can't Even Sing". The song was written by Neil Young and originally recorded by Buffalo Springfield (the band Young was in at the time). The Carpenters took this relatively unknown folk-rock tune and gave it their own treatment. The song has some outstanding bass lines and fantastic drum work. Karen and Richard's vocals are great on this song (more excellent use of the stacked vocal effect). Musically this is one of the Carpenters' very best early efforts.
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Post by Rob813 on Apr 5, 2006 22:58:40 GMT -5
Wow this is a fascinating topic. I think that Karen and Richard were experimenting from the very beginning. Their musical heritage passed down from their dad was an exposure to all kinds of music. You can tell that they had a lot of fun recording all those different styles of music. The fact that they did it all so effortlessly and well is proof of their extraordinary talent. Further the music's ability to "hold up" after all these years, to stay fresh and modern is a testament to the quality of the work. I love the extended instrumental ending of Another Song. The guiter solo in Goodbye To Love is bold and daring. The mind blowing arrangement of Calling Occupants and Karen's distinctive vocal work on this song shout out to me that they were pushing their boundaries and breaking out of the love song pigeon hole in which they had become caged. All of this and more are clear proof of their desire and progress to try new styles and not rest on their well deserved laurels.
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Post by GoodOldDreams on Apr 6, 2006 0:12:25 GMT -5
I heartily agree... this is a great tune in terms of overall treatment, vocal harmonies, arrangement, and musicianship. It is also one of Richard's best lead vocals... ... breaking out of the love song pigeon hole in which they had become caged... Wow! What a clever turn of avian metaphors, Rob!
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Post by Rick Henry on Apr 6, 2006 1:37:59 GMT -5
... breaking out of the love song pigeon hole in which they had become caged... Wow! What a clever turn of avian metaphors, Rob!
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Post by Rick Henry on Apr 7, 2006 15:14:38 GMT -5
Now to continue on with a few choice songs...
"Road Ode": This song does not have a screaming guitar solo like "Goodbye To Love" but I feel it's every bit as edgy. It's in Karen's voice. She sings this one with an urgency. Her voice is deep, rich, bold and smokey while maintaining a sense of relevancy to the current time (and onward). The horns in this song give it a dramatic feel. That sax solo adds a bit of steam to the whole work. I think it's the lyrical theme about a rock star on the road which gives the song most of it edge. Truly "Road Ode" is a strong song.
"Desperado" - Musiaclly this song is quite tender and serene yet it has a sense of strength and boldness. Again Karen's voice is rich and deep adding to the songs edge. Throughout the song features light yet effective guitar chords - all this and the stunning harmonica work keep the Carpenters right in tune with modern sounds of the mid 70's.
I really like the way forum member Prisoner_Walking (Leo) describes Karen's voice in "Desperado". His quote follows below: Yes Rick I agree...I am frequently blown away by Karen's reading of "Desperado". Man, that intimate piano/vocal verse, the trademark drawn-out tom fill (right UP in the mix as always!) and then that soaring chorus - amazing stuff. Truly, "Deperado" sums up what Karen means to me - she sounds rich, intimate, and aching, yet within the same song young, feminine, edgy. I'm working myself up into a frenzy now just thinking about it! LOL. L "Boat To Sail" - Karen again gives us a "hip" sounding vocal performance. The echoing stacked vocal effect on this song send it right into a world of experimental pop sounds. The Carpenters were not satisfied with recording staright pop tunes they always had to tweak the set a bit with something a bit out of the ordinary like "Boat To Sail". The vibes solo adds an array of sunshiny chiming tinglings sounds and works it's way into a very effective smooth guitar solo. The Carpenters naver did let go of their early jazz influence which is evidenced by the intricate jazz guitar riffs which find in this song. One of the best parts of this song is the outstanding bass lines which add a great smooth groove to the whole experience known as "Boat To Sail". This is one of the Carpenters' very best hidden gems.
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Post by Rick Henry on Apr 10, 2006 9:33:12 GMT -5
I love topics like this as they help us to dig a little deeper into the "whole" of who the Carpenters were musically. Yes, they recorded some of the most beautiful love songs ever in the history of music. But they were much more than that. I feel because "Close To You" was such a huge hit song A&M wanted them to record nothing but songs like that. Which I guess would have suited the public just fine. But, I feel if Carpenters were to have done that their musical output would not have been quite so interesting. One of the reasons I love Carpenters as I do is for their sense of variety and experimentation.
I really feel that Carpenters did want to change their sound and image in the late 70's and early 80's. This really shows with the album "Passage". It's also quite obvious with Karen's solo album. Karen (with the help of fantatic musicians as Bob James and Rod Temperton) really stepped out of her oridnary and recorded an outstanding work of primarily jazz influnced music (very similar to what Al Jarreau was doing at the time). "Made In America" was released during this time. But, I truly feel MIA was not the album Karen and Richard really wanted to record. MIA is a good album and I do enjoy listening to it quite a bit - but it's just not quite so cutting edge as all their previous studio albums were. I feel this album was a "playing it safe" release. I think the powers that be at A&M really governed the way MIA was to sound and what resulted was the Carpenters' weakest selling studio album. Maybe A&M was wrong in wanting Carpenters to go back to their traditional sound during a period when music was changing.
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Post by GoodOldDreams on Apr 11, 2006 12:24:37 GMT -5
Yes, Karen's solo album is an invigorating departure in so many ways --- musically, lyrically and image-wise. With a voice that was deep and precociously wise beyond her years right from the start of her career, Karen presents an even more mature and "adult" image in this album. With titles like "Make Believe It's Your First Time," "My Body Keeps Changing My Mind," "Making Love in the Afternoon" and "Remember When Lovin' Took All Night," Karen paints a self-portrait of a more daring and self-aware woman emancipated from the sweet, naive girl-next-door image, having personally experienced the exhilaration, trials, tribulations and disillusionment of romantic love in her own life. The jazz-influenced pieces have an air of sophistication and bluesy self-reflection. In contrast, Richard's solo albums, "Time" and "RC: Pianist, Arranger, Composer, Conductor" do not aim to break much new ground or reinforce the legacy of Carpenters effectively. Thus, they do not hold the same sense of experimentation, adventure and fascination for me. Although Richard's earlier works with Karen demonstrate that he is indeed a fantastic pianist, arranger, composer and conductor, the solo albums unfortunately do not showcase and underscore this very fact. Maybe this is understandably so, since he and the rest of us are all bereft of the one of the most beautiful musical instruments --- Karen herself. (P.S.: Instead of the somewhat diluted orchestral version of Carpenters songs in the second solo album, Richard might find more public interest in an album that features only the instrumental tracks of the studio recordings. That way, karaoke enthusiasts may have a great time --- if only for a moment --- honing their voices and stepping into the role of one of the greatest vocalists that has ever lived!)
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Apr 11, 2006 12:52:17 GMT -5
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