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Post by smoothie2 on Sept 12, 2005 23:52:55 GMT -5
WoW....interesting Dave...the thought that anorexia and perhaps other eating disorders could be linked to chemicals in the brain...and / or genes...something I never even thought of...
i always believed this started out as a learned behaviour where emotional prob. ...stress
a way of life, (and i guess these are stressors for sure) was the main drives. Need for control...which really spins way out of the person's grasp of reality. Thanks for sharing that.
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 13, 2005 20:52:02 GMT -5
Hi, Smoothie; Yes, I have debated firing off a missive to the writer, but he DID mantion Karen first, which confirmed to me that perhaps her untimely passing created a legacy larger than the music ever did. No way Karen's greatest and biggest legacy is still and will always be the music and her beautiful voice. Without that there is no legacy.  |
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 16, 2005 1:49:29 GMT -5
I will agree with you only partially, Rick. The music certainly did open the door, and the status Karen held was certainly quite visible. But last year, a co-worker who'd battled anorexia surprised me when she told me that her doctor knew all about Karen's anorexic legacy. And yet again, Karen gets "top billing" (on a marquee she'd rather not be on!) prefacing an article about medical research into eating disorders. If they're teaching her case history to every med student in every school, the musical legacy takes a back seat...until the "kids" curiousity gets the better of them, and they buy some albums, or find a website like yours. Either way, her death was far from meaningless if the medical community has chosen to use it as a benchmark. I hear what you're saying Dave and yes Karen does get a great deal of attention because of the fact that she died from complications of anorexia. And please don't take offense by my sincere expression. But it's because of her voice that she receives any attention at all. If it weren't for Karen's God given talent people most likely wouldn't even know who Karen Carpenter is.
You are right her death is certainly far from meaningingless. But it is not a big stretch for a doctor (especially a doctor who deals with anorexia) to be familiar with Karen's battle with anorexia. After all at one point in time Karen was the most popular singer in the world. Anything that happened to Karen or anything she did was always widely known. I think most people who have reached the point of studying medicine (at the youngest ages maybe 16 or 17) they were already familiar with Karen because they've heard a song or an album somewhere or seen her on a countdown on VH1 or watched one of the many television documentaries. And yes in these countdowns and documentaries the anorexia is mentioned but the main focus is on her voice and musical talent.
As for Karen's musical legacy taking a backseat to anorexia I just don't agree. In the articles about anorexia Karen is not the main focus anorexia is. Karen is a familiar name that people can relate to. For every anorexia article written (with Karen's name mentioned) there has to be maybe three or four articles written on her music and in these articles Karen is the main focus. To this day Karen ends up in many articles, music polls, television (VH1) countdowns, radio airplay, music charts and so forth - because of her voice. I mean after all Karen is considered to be one of the finest vocalists (male or female) in the history of popular music. That is one huge legacy to top. |
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Post by cam83 on Sept 16, 2005 9:31:42 GMT -5
My opinion is that for Karen...she will always be a singer who died from anorexia...that is how I learned about her...and then I was kind of intrigued...went out to buy her albums and fell in love with THAT voice. But for me, it's one without the other. She was a gorgeous singer who happened to have a horrendous problem with anorexia. And yes, anorexia was her other legacy...not being anorexic, but conquering it is the legacy....I always tell people when they mention her death, that she died of complications stemming from it, after having gained an amazing 31 pounds!!
My thoughts,
Cameron
PS. Her music was uplifting and saved lives(so to speak), but her anorexia battle and subsequent death, also saved many countless lives...
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Post by Ming on Sept 16, 2005 10:41:01 GMT -5
PS. Her music was uplifting and saved lives(so to speak), but her anorexia battle and subsequent death, also saved many countless lives... I agree with you, Cam. |
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 16, 2005 10:53:14 GMT -5
My opinion is that for Karen...she will always be a singer who died from anorexia... My thoughts, Cameron PS. Her music was uplifting and saved lives(so to speak), but her anorexia battle and subsequent death, also saved many countless lives... Well said Cam. You are right. It is one without the other. Fortunately though I can seperate the two. When I listen to Carpenters music I rarely think of anorexia. The music is just so good and Karen's voice is so outstanding that I am completely engulfed by the music and not by thoughts of anorexia.
Just to shed a little more light on this. A legacy is a gift inherited of left behind. The gift that Karen left behind is her music. Her death is not a legacy but more so an unfortunate and sad tragedy.
p.s. just being literal... |
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Post by cam83 on Sept 16, 2005 12:47:54 GMT -5
Legacy=she left behind the knowledge of the lethelness of eating disorders. People lost such a great singer and a great person when she passed on. It is indeed a GIFT that she left behind....a gift of life...of hope...of winning the fight...
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 16, 2005 14:07:10 GMT -5
Legacy=she left behind the knowledge of the lethelness of eating disorders. People lost such a great singer and a great person when she passed on. It is indeed a GIFT that she left behind....a gift of life...of hope...of winning the fight... When you put it that way Cam I can only agree with you. |
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 16, 2005 18:43:09 GMT -5
"Legacy=she left behind the knowledge of the lethelness of eating disorders. People lost such a great singer and a great person when she passed on. It is indeed a GIFT that she left behind....a gift of life...of hope...of winning the fight..." ...what I wanted to say, but couldn't make the words come together. Thanks, Cam. Yes, good way to say it. Though first and foremost above all else is Karen's voice and music. Yes, her early death adds more to her legacy and it is a big part of who Karen is. But to say her fight with anorexia supercedes her voice and music just doesn't seem right. It's not her fight with anorexia which keeps millions of fans interested. It's the music definitely. |
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 17, 2005 10:24:39 GMT -5
But from another viewpoint, many thousands of med students may have heard of the Carpenters only at Christmastime. I am fortunate to have the little AM station which plays them often, but around the world how many stations play them on a regular basis? Since it seems as if they're teaching Karen's case history in medical schools, perhaps some memories get jogged, and some search to find out more. So, the two "legacies", for lack of a better word, actually dovetail with one another. Equal "partners"? To me, it's like the difference between coming into LA from I-10 or I-5...either way, you get there. Yes, but the fact is it's Karen's voice and her music that keeps the people interested and buying the CD's. I mean do we buy Queen discs because Freddie Mercury died of AIDS (I'm sure Freddie is menioned in some medical classes) or do we buy John Lennon discs because he was shot to death? I don't think so - it's because first the music is great. If Karen's voice was less than great believe me she would not be quite as well recognized. If she weren't the superstar she is than medical schools most likely wouldn't even mention her name. If her voice weren't as beautifull as it is than people who may have heard her name in a medical class first would not grow to love her if they didn't like her voice.
Her death yes is well documented. And maybe in some medical classes in one brief portion her name is menioned in studying diseases like anorexia - but golly what other name are they going to mention. After all Karen, because of her music, is the biggest name to have died of anorexia. And in these studies Karen certainly is not the main focus - the disease they are studying is. And not everybody takes medical classes in the world. And on top of that not every medical class or course studies anorexia. I think far more people listen to the radio or watch music channels on TV than do study diseases. In the past three years I've receieved numerous emails from college age people and younger saying they didn't realize Karen had died. That's a hard one to believe - but it's true.
Karen did die at a young age and yes her death has helped countless people to survive a devastating disease (and that is a wonderful legacy). And yes maybe even some people may discover Karen from a small part of a medical book or class. But I think far far more people discover Karen when they are listening to music or watching a music channel on TV.
Karen Carpenter would not be who she is today if she didn't have the beautiful voice she had. There's no way around it. It's her voice and the music which the legacy of Karen Carpenter is cemented on first and foremost. I believe Karen is by far more widely known because of her music. I mean look what happens every Christmas. Look at how many music surveys and other music specials (ie; I Love The 70's) Carpenters are featured in on VH1. That's because of the music. And that's where Karen is the main focus.
I think more people discover Karen at Christmas time than from any other source. As for radio stations that play Carpenters on a regular basis we have a few here in Los Angeles area that do. I even hear them on my local cabgle television music broadcast every single day. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 17, 2005 16:37:59 GMT -5
OK heres the problem I think we have in this debate Rick you and I knew Karen when she was alive, before the anorexia when she was the most popular singer in the world. For us or for me at least it was about the music, her voice and I do not agree we knew about what was going on with Karen during her life we certainly did not. Its was only after Karen died that we got the whole story of her disease. In Cams case and he is not alone he discovered Karen after her death, he suffered from an ED so to him it was more about the anorexia than the music. Since Karen died whenever she is mentioned even musically speaking it is always accompanied by her anorexia. I don't like this because like you Rick I feel it is about the music much more than the disease. Unfortuneately Rick when someone dies interest in their legacy and career is always increased but what bugs me about Karen is the constant focus on what she died of as opposed to the music. In the case of a John Lennon or a Freddy Mercury it is always their musical contributions and legacy that get the focus and their tragic deaths are less emphasised I just wish they would give Karen that same treatment is all. So no I do not consider anorexia Karens legacy it is a focus when talking about her too much of a focus but I suppose they must have a point of reference when giving a face to the disease and Karen is still the most famous case. For me the legacy is the great body of work left behind when I listen to Karen anorexia and ED's never even enter the picture I enjoy the music from one of the greatest singer/drummers of all time that to me will always be what its alll about and Karens true legacy no matter what happened in her life or how she died. Just my two cents for what its worth.   |
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Post by Rob813 on Sept 17, 2005 16:47:02 GMT -5
My, my my - you guys certainly are intense. Tracey Gold from Growing Pains also battled anorexia, but I don't hear people mentioning her. Why? Because Tracey Gold is a "peone" compared with the late great Karen Carpenter. She is already considered one of the greatest singers and drummers of the 20th Century. When I mention Karen to people I don't know, they always say she what a great voice she had. They know she died of anorexia, but that's not what they remark about. It's always the voice.
Clearly, anorexia is very important and 22 years after Karen's death, it is still a huge problem, with men and women, young and now middle age suffering from it's insipid grasp. Karen's identification with the disease originally put a face to the condition. In the ensuing years, much has been learned about the condition. New treatments are being used and people are recovering from it. However, people are also still dying from it!
The point is that Karen's death brought the attention or spotlight to an unknow condition/disease (at that time). Doctors weren't even taking it seriously until her death.
In a hundred years, after we're all gone, people will still know that Karen died of anorexia, but what they'll really care about is the music that she and Richard so carefully and lovingly gave to the world.
Karen's legacy will first and foremost be her voice and the timeless music she recorded. As was said at her funeral: the voice is stilled, but the echo will go on forever.
Rest in peace, dear Karen. We love you always.
Rob
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 17, 2005 20:43:55 GMT -5
Clearly, anorexia is very important and 22 years after Karen's death, it is still a huge problem, with men and women, young and now middle age suffering from it's insipid grasp. Karen's identification with the disease originally put a face to the condition. In the ensuing years, much has been learned about the condition. New treatments are being used and people are recovering from it. However, people are also still dying from it! The point is that Karen's death brought the attention or spotlight to an unknow condition/disease (at that time). Doctors weren't even taking it seriously until her death. Definitely Karen's death has brought much needed awareness to this disease. Many lives have been saved because of Karen's death. And yes this is a part of her legacy. But certainly not the main part of her legacy. If it were most of our discussions here would be focused on anorexia. In a hundred years, after we're all gone, people will still know that Karen died of anorexia, but what they'll really care about is the music that she and Richard so carefully and lovingly gave to the world. Karen's legacy will first and foremost be her voice and the timeless music she recorded. As was said at her funeral: the voice is stilled, but the echo will go on forever. Yes, in the end it is Karen's voice and the music that grabs us (new and old fans alike) and keeps us interested. It's not the source of how one comes to discover Karen (be it a medical case study, a friend playing a disc or the Christmas season). But it's what keeps people coming back. That is her main legacy and simply it's her voice.
As Enigma says it's the body of work left behind. |
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Post by JIM on Sept 18, 2005 1:15:22 GMT -5
:'(Thanks for sharing that article Dave. First I must say that Karens gift of Music was her ultimate legacy to the world but as Cam pointed out a legacy is a gift and although I don't know the facts surrounding the scientific nature of Aneroexia and the only reason it was brought to my attention was through the loss of Karen. I can only beleive that many others were just as in the dark over this disease as I was. So by bringing this disorder to light Karen certainly has given life to many who suffer from Anorexia. which is
also a legacy but one that would have never been possible without Karens celebrity status. Without it she would never have had the chance to give the gift of understanding that was made so painfully possible through her passing. I can only imagine the countless lives Karen has saved through her death from as far as I know was hardly recognized by many until it was known that Anorexia led to her untimely death.
The one part of the article that I find this DR. has failed to point out is that we are all predisposed to genetic factors that by there nature place us at risk for developing phycological disorders that may be the cause for the development of many disorders through the
myriad of nurochemicals such as dopamine and seretonin or lack of these chemicals that in my belief require a catalyst to set in motion what ultimately becomes a phycological disorder that has the potential to take a life. Just because one is genetically prediposed to a low level of dopamine, for instance, then you would still require an enviormental stimulus i.e socially accepted norms of what is fat vs thin. No one is born with concepts of beauty, they are learned or taught by society and even with a normal balance of neruochemicals in the brain, overtime social conditioning has the power to cause a conditioned response that is learned through the reward system of the brain (Pavilovs Dogs) society rewards those who are taught they are overweight and rewarded when it is lost. As with any reward the positive feelings produced from the action that caused this reward are by human nature addictive, because when we are told we have succeded there is a natural high produced by the release of the 2 biggies Dopamine and Seretonin, which we strive to reproduce at all cost, because of the positive emotions they produce. I feel the Dr. has over simplified the dynamics involved in this process which can either lead to a healthy life or one of self sestuction.
My dad recently passed away from Huntingtons
disease for which there is caused by a distinctiley defective genetic marker in the DNA sequence. This type of defective genetic sequencing which is unique to this disease leads to death no matter what learned behaviors we may develope through social conditioning that lead to learned behaviors. It is fatal wether you are rich or poor
fat or thin accepted by your mother or not. That is a genetic disease in my eyes. I am not an expert but from my research I can not until a specific Anorexia gene is identified view Anorexia outside a conditioned response to what we as a society teach each other as what is consindered markers of beauty as far as they relate to fat, thin, short, tall. No one is born with prejudice or we may as well say prejudice a genetic disease.
Sorry for the sermon
I love you all
Jim
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Post by BethMosior on Sept 18, 2005 17:20:40 GMT -5
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 18, 2005 21:04:51 GMT -5
Richard says that even if Karen had never sung a note, and had been a homemaker instead (gee, is his mindset stuck in the 1950's?) that Karen would've been anorexic anyway. We've bandied this about last year, and it evokes some very emotional responses. To a person, we heartily disagree with the Richmeister. I have to agree with you on this one Dave. We all know Karen's celebrity played a major role in her becoming anorexic. And who knows Agnes may have been completely different if Karen and Richard grew up to be normal everyday middle class Americans. Life for Karen would have been significantly different. You just can't through a comment like the one Richard said and expect it to be accurate. Had Karen been a homemaker she most likely would not have been as concerned about her appearance and she most likely would have already had a child by the time she was 23 - which would have also completely changed her entire outlook on herself and her life. I find Richard's comments on this to be too generalized. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 19, 2005 7:03:56 GMT -5
Well My interpretations of Richards comments were that to say fame and celeberty cause ED's is not true. Richard used the example of had Karen become a housewife she would still have a ED to point out that alot of "housewives" also develop ED's meaning basically do not blame Karens occupation, her fame or "the business" for her ED. From that view point I agree with Richard so many people use the entertainment industry as a scapegoat to problems that have so many other causes. We know there was alot going on with Karen and the music business is not to blame for all her problems. If you think Agnes would mellow out if Karen was in another perfession your kidding yourself there are alot of controlling meddling mothers out there whose daughters are not in the business. Were Karen not in the business she still would have been just as sensitive to criticism, just as critical of herself her personality would still be there Karen would still be Karen she would not be a different person if she wasn't famous. I will grant you that the music business did not help things and MAY have made small issues in Karens life larger but I think if one thinks Karens problems would disappear if she had another occupation you are way oversimplifying what caused her EDs not all famous people develop EDs and ordinary or non famous people develop EDs. I often criticise Richard for his comments or actions but in this case from my interpretation of his comment I totally agree with Richard on this one and you wont hear me say that too often. Perhaps some of you feel that what I say is poorly researched but its how I feel about Richards comment. |
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Post by Rick Henry on Sept 19, 2005 9:23:02 GMT -5
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