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Post by Rob813 on Aug 25, 2005 17:29:46 GMT -5
Obviously the marriage of Karen and Tom Burris was a bust. Karen's anorexia probably played a role in the demise of that relationship.
I was wondering who would have been a better choice for our Karen to have married.
I think Karen needed someone who was strong and yet sensitive at the same time.
What do you think?
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Post by BethMosior on Aug 25, 2005 18:13:43 GMT -5
I keep thinking of the Man in England, I can't remember his name, that had secret dates with Karen, I saw him on the E! true hollywood storys your right Rob, Karen needed some who REALLY loved her unconditionally, who would stand by her no matter what, I know that does not happen alot but I have seen it, like a hand & glove, they just fit
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Post by Marc on Aug 25, 2005 18:14:19 GMT -5
I remember seeing an interview with an English record exec. (I think it was on E true hollywood story), who claimed to have a brief affair with Karen. I think I remember him saying that they were both in love, but I don't remember why it didn't work out. I'm not sure if this was on the level, but if it was it seems such a shame, because he seemed to e a nice, normal guy who really loved her.
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Post by smoothie2 on Aug 25, 2005 23:52:48 GMT -5
Good question Rob. I don't really know much about the marriage. I suppose it may have lasted longer, surely, if she had not been in the show biz world since so many in that world are gone so much ..I think she and Tom really loved each other and wanted things to work out. Just 2 much pressure involved all the way around...too many negative things. .......That is interesting though Dave about Agnes being involved with the space program. I think you may have mentioned that before somewhere. So, yes, I think someone from NASA, or some technical minded guy would have been good. Karen was an outgoing and independent gal, she may have matched up better with a man who was not so much that way, and one who knew something about music too definitely.
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Post by enigma on Aug 26, 2005 7:16:32 GMT -5
Based on interviews I have heard and read rregarding Karen's taste in men indicate she seemed to like assertive and confident men she liked someone who was not intimidated by her status or fame and most important someone loved the real Karen. This is based on statements Karen has made herself so are accurate. I get the feeling that having money was more important to Agnes than Karen and since the key to being with Karen was Agnes and Richards approval it was a criteria. I feel kind of weird getting into Karens private life but it seemed that meeting a certain criteria set up by Karen and Agnes would be essential if you were to marry her or win her over. Dave you are correct that anyone who got close to Karen in the Carpenters circle was either fired or told to cool it or be fired there are countless examples to prove this. There was a protective "blanket" around Karen that was very hard to penetrate. This A&M exec was called "softley" I believe his name was John something (forgot his last name I believe Tim knows his name) and seemed to be the best match for Karen they apparently got really close until outside interferance snuffed out the relashionship. Had she married this fellow who knows what wuold have happened he seemed like the best match for Karen.
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Aug 26, 2005 8:55:46 GMT -5
I'm just perusing the site before starting work this a.m., but I do know that the English Record Exec some of you have mentioned is spoken of in The Untold Story. I'll look it up this evening and post about it then. I think they might have been able to make it work, had there not been so much of a "wall" to penetrate, around Karen from her family. More to come... Tim
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Post by Carps1000 on Aug 26, 2005 15:18:10 GMT -5
The "EXEC" Was a guy called John Adrian ( His nickname was "Softly" cos he starred in a police crime drama in the UK called Softly Softly Task Force & he was also a male model. He fell big time for Karen but "The Firm" once a gain put the "mockers on it & he was recalled to the UK after a late nite phone call from being Karens PA & told to take a holiday or lose his job. When Karen heard he got married to a girl he met on the "forced" holiday she sent a gift of crystal Glasses.......He never received them & when Karen & he met up later she gently rebuked him for not saying "Ta" & he didnt know what she was talkin about.......so the story goes .....another A &M Incident ?? Honestly its like Peyton Place there. Ken carps1000
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Post by Rick Henry on Aug 26, 2005 18:47:50 GMT -5
The "EXEC" Was a guy called John Adrian ( His nickname was "Softly" cos he starred in a police crime drama in the UK called Softly Softly Task Force & he was also a male model. He fell big time for Karen but "The Firm" once a gain put the "mockers on it & he was recalled to the UK after a late nite phone call from being Karens PA & told to take a holiday or lose his job. When Karen heard he got married to a girl he met on the "forced" holiday she sent a gift of crystal Glasses.......He never received them & when Karen & he met up later she gently rebuked him for not saying "Ta" & he didnt know what she was talkin about.......so the story goes .....another A &M Incident ?? Honestly its like Peyton Place there. Ken carps1000 Very good information. Thank you Ken for taking the time to post this for us. Softy was definitely a good choice for Karen.
Another romance she had (which did not work out) in 1977(?) she dated record executive Terry Ellis. I remember seeing pictures of Karen and Terry in a few magazines. Karen certainly could have found confident, assertive men at Lockheed, if she'd only thought to look outside the box. I have a feeling even if she were to look outside the box any relationship she would have tried to start during the 70's would have been quashed.
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Post by smoothie2 on Aug 26, 2005 23:29:10 GMT -5
Hi, Smoothie; Richard himself told me about Agnes working there, in response to a question I asked. Rick mentions a friend named Ev, who according to Cam, used to be a co-worker of Agnes's, and is still alive. Ken, from what I've received it wasn't until near the end of Karen's life that she found out that the relationship with John had been deliberately sabotaged. She never knew why he suddenly stopped communicating with her, and no one would give her straight answers. Karen certainly could have found confident, assertive men at Lockheed, if she'd only thought to look outside the box. And Hi Dave....wow...Isn't that somethin'...I'm glad Richard has the site he does, and that he's so willingly answers questions....it's a great connection...! I really appreciate your thoughts also. It's just really very sad that Karen got so boxed in.
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Post by Rick Henry on Aug 26, 2005 23:54:04 GMT -5
You really think so, Rick? Let's use my example, for example. There was no shortage of famous people hanging about the Lockheed plant in the early 70s, people like Armstrong, Aldrin, and Collins were frequent visitors. So, the people (engineers) weren't intimidated by famous people. So, now let's imagine that it's 1973, and one of the new "fresh-outs" (as they call newly minted engineers) happens to meet Karen, and things take their course. How is Agnes going to look going to this kid's boss and saying "I want you to fire so-and-so." "Why?", is the bosses' response. "Because he's dating my daughter, and you know who she is, don't you?!!!" The boss is going to look at Agnes like she has two heads, and say "Let's pretend you and I didn't have this conversation. Good day, Agnes". The home front would be altogether different, however. And there, as you know all too well, enough pressure would have been put upon Karen so that the powers that be would get their way. Meanwhile, her weight begins its slow, steady downward spiral...the clock is set in motion. But I think that the point of the thread was to speculate on possible show-biz matches, not real-world types. Just remember that Mary Chapin Carpenter is happily married to a construction company foreman, and lives in the hills of Virginia. You have to remember their family and career dynamics in 1973. Agnes, Richard and A&M Records were not going to let their songbird - their star get to far away from home. One way or another any relationship Karen would try to have at that time period was destined to failure. There was the meddling family along with a very demanding career which had her on the road about 9 months out of the year. It just was not feasible for Karen to develop a relationship.
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Post by smoothie2 on Aug 26, 2005 23:55:34 GMT -5
Based on interviews I have heard and read rregarding Karen's taste in men indicate she seemed to like assertive and confident men she liked someone who was not intimidated by her status or fame and most important someone loved the real Karen. This is based on statements Karen has made herself so are accurate. I get the feeling that having money was more important to Agnes than Karen and since the key to being with Karen was Agnes and Richards approval it was a criteria. I feel kind of weird getting into Karens private life but it seemed that meeting a certain criteria set up by Karen and Agnes would be essential if you were to marry her or win her over. Dave you are correct that anyone who got close to Karen in the Carpenters circle was either fired or told to cool it or be fired there are countless examples to prove this. There was a protective "blanket" around Karen that was very hard to penetrate. This A&M exec was called "softley" I believe his name was John something (forgot his last name I believe Tim knows his name) and seemed to be the best match for Karen they apparently got really close until outside interferance snuffed out the relashionship. Had she married this fellow who knows what wuold have happened he seemed like the best match for Karen. :)Very good info. Enigma. It's been a long time since I read R. Coleman's book...and I didn't realize just how much pressure Karen did face ...and/or guys who were interested in her. She really did need to somehow break out of that stuff...not sure how. I am really glad that despite all that, she stuck with being true to her music. No wonder she was so devoted and her determination and boldness seemed to just get stronger and better with each song throughout all those yrs.
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Post by smoothie2 on Aug 27, 2005 0:12:12 GMT -5
You really think so, Rick? Let's use my example, for example. There was no shortage of famous people hanging about the Lockheed plant in the early 70s, people like Armstrong, Aldrin, and Collins were frequent visitors. So, the people (engineers) weren't intimidated by famous people. So, now let's imagine that it's 1973, and one of the new "fresh-outs" (as they call newly minted engineers) happens to meet Karen, and things take their course. How is Agnes going to look going to this kid's boss and saying "I want you to fire so-and-so." "Why?", is the bosses' response. "Because he's dating my daughter, and you know who she is, don't you?!!!" The boss is going to look at Agnes like she has two heads, and say "Let's pretend you and I didn't have this conversation. Good day, Agnes". The home front would be altogether different, however. And there, as you know all too well, enough pressure would have been put upon Karen so that the powers that be would get their way. Meanwhile, her weight begins its slow, steady downward spiral...the clock is set in motion. But I think that the point of the thread was to speculate on possible show-biz matches, not real-world types. Just remember that Mary Chapin Carpenter is happily married to a construction company foreman, and lives in the hills of Virginia. You have to remember their family and career dynamics in 1973. Agnes, Richard and A&M Records were not going to let their songbird - their star get to far away from home. One way or another any relationship Karen would try to have at that time period was destined to failure. There was the meddling family along with a very demanding career which had her on the road about 9 months out of the year. It just was not feasible for Karen to develop a relationship. ???Yes, indeed...but kind of a 2-edged sword....wonderful....we have a lot of music because of the C's....but living on the road under such a guard always....had much to do with her anorexia. >>>>>>>>>>>For so many celebrities, they face same terrible things... Makes me really love and miss her even more.... The great thing is ...well, she's not a thing, but...such a beautiful and gifted person...thanks Karen!
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Post by BethMosior on Aug 27, 2005 0:17:59 GMT -5
I live an hour or two from Richmand I've been tempted to see if I could find the place where Harold & Agnes lived Karen really a great man to share life with if only?
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Post by YesterdayOnceMore on Aug 27, 2005 15:14:41 GMT -5
It took me until this afternoon to get this information looked-up, sorry all. The gentleman I was referring to, you're right, Enigma, and Ken, was known as "Softly" - his name is John Adrian. He was the Promotion Chief for A&M in Brittan. He was a 33-year old former model. Right again, Ken. Softly was a true fan of the Carpenters' sound. He went to Germany to meet "the woman whose voice he adored." And, as soon as he met her, he recalled, "I knew that I was going to have an affair with her", according to a quote in Ray Coleman's book, page 197. When he picked them up at the airport, it is reported that at Karen's insistence "Softly stepped straight into their limousine beside her and Richard to establish a romantic liaison very quickly." They sneaked away together for a limo ride around the Scottish moorlands, returning uncomfortably late for that night's Glasgow concert; they wandered around London's Portobello Road buying antiques; into pubs for lunch; and on shopping expeditions around all the cities on the tour. As the relationship blossomed, those who had known of her earlier relationship with Terry Ellis now mused on her penchant for British record industry executives. But while the band treated Softly as one of the gang, Richard remained aloof. He considered Softly simply the promotions guy. Ray goes on to say: Soon, Softly fell in love with the "sweet, sentimental, refreshing, innocent girl he also found strong-willed but physically frail. She ate chocolate for instant energy, and he had a sweater made for her inscribed with "Snickers," her favorite". He believed she was pushed and bullied by a lot of people. Karen's liaison with Softly came under the scrutiny of her Beverly Hills pal Frenda Leffler. At dinner one night Frenda flat out asked Softly "what would you do with all that money?" He replied that he would be able to handle it OK. Hoping that he had a future with Karen, Softly told Frenda and Derek Green that HE GENUINELY LOVED HER. He believed KC loved him too, but, reportedly, shortly after a dinner party to celebrate another triumphant British tour, a time bomb that had been ticking under Softly and Karen exploded. "SOMEONE" (not specifically named, but someone from the Carpenters inner circle) contacted Derek Green to say that more needed to be known about Softly before he and Karen could continue their affair. His character was being scrutinized from CAlifornia. On one level, Green says of the phone conversation, it was like talking to a concerned parent. On another, he felt a shiver, feeling sad for KC, thinking that a young woman couldn't date who she liked, and why? Because there was a lot of money around. It sadly ended this way - Softly told Green he was going to CA to visit Karen for Christmas, and Green told him that if he did, when he returned, he would not have a job any more. Softly believed this was an elaborate plan BY KAREN to end their affair surreptitiously. He told Green "Forget it, then! If she doesn't want to know, then I don't." He called Karen after the holidays and told her (thinking she'd engineered the split in the first place) that he was ending things. Karen thought it was HE that ended this affair. Coleman ends this chapter by making this statement, which drove me to this whole point: "If the romance had continued naturally, Softly thought they might well have married. That's what they were scared of, I think, that I was going to be her manager, or something, and take her money. It was the beginning of something that could have been fabulous because we really liked each other." Sad, isn't it? Tim
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Post by Carps1000 on Aug 27, 2005 16:38:44 GMT -5
Reading all this I can only feel an immense sadness for karen. I am also sooooo Bxxxxxxxxx mad with A&M too who only thought of her as a meal money making machine & was so impressed with her that it took years after her death for them to even put a piccy of the Cs on their walls of their famous acts on their label. Poor Karen only wanted to make music to make people happy, be with her bruv & to be a superstar & have a man to love her & eventually raise a family. She gave peopl what they wanted so why couldnt they return the favour on certain issues. I could cry at times.....& do too at the sheer stupidity etc of it all. Karen was one of the rare people that were beautiful inside as well as out. Carps Ken 10000
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Post by smoothie2 on Aug 27, 2005 22:29:08 GMT -5
It took me until this afternoon to get this information looked-up, sorry all. The gentleman I was referring to, you're right, Enigma, and Ken, was known as "Softly" - his name is John Adrian. He was the Promotion Chief for A&M in Brittan. He was a 33-year old former model. Right again, Ken. Softly was a true fan of the Carpenters' sound. He went to Germany to meet "the woman whose voice he adored." And, as soon as he met her, he recalled, "I knew that I was going to have an affair with her", according to a quote in Ray Coleman's book, page 197. When he picked them up at the airport, it is reported that at Karen's insistence "Softly stepped straight into their limousine beside her and Richard to establish a romantic liaison very quickly." They sneaked away together for a limo ride around the Scottish moorlands, returning uncomfortably late for that night's Glasgow concert; they wandered around London's Portobello Road buying antiques; into pubs for lunch; and on shopping expeditions around all the cities on the tour. As the relationship blossomed, those who had known of her earlier relationship with Terry Ellis now mused on her penchant for British record industry executives. But while the band treated Softly as one of the gang, Richard remained aloof. He considered Softly simply the promotions guy. Ray goes on to say: Soon, Softly fell in love with the "sweet, sentimental, refreshing, innocent girl he also found strong-willed but physically frail. She ate chocolate for instant energy, and he had a sweater made for her inscribed with "Snickers," her favorite". He believed she was pushed and bullied by a lot of people. Karen's liaison with Softly came under the scrutiny of her Beverly Hills pal Frenda Leffler. At dinner one night Frenda flat out asked Softly "what would you do with all that money?" He replied that he would be able to handle it OK. Hoping that he had a future with Karen, Softly told Frenda and Derek Green that HE GENUINELY LOVED HER. He believed KC loved him too, but, reportedly, shortly after a dinner party to celebrate another triumphant British tour, a time bomb that had been ticking under Softly and Karen exploded. "SOMEONE" (not specifically named, but someone from the Carpenters inner circle) contacted Derek Green to say that more needed to be known about Softly before he and Karen could continue their affair. His character was being scrutinized from CAlifornia. On one level, Green says of the phone conversation, it was like talking to a concerned parent. On another, he felt a shiver, feeling sad for KC, thinking that a young woman couldn't date who she liked, and why? Because there was a lot of money around. It sadly ended this way - Softly told Green he was going to CA to visit Karen for Christmas, and Green told him that if he did, when he returned, he would not have a job any more. Softly believed this was an elaborate plan BY KAREN to end their affair surreptitiously. He told Green "Forget it, then! If she doesn't want to know, then I don't." He called Karen after the holidays and told her (thinking she'd engineered the split in the first place) that he was ending things. Karen thought it was HE that ended this affair. Coleman ends this chapter by making this statement, which drove me to this whole point: "If the romance had continued naturally, Softly thought they might well have married. That's what they were scared of, I think, that I was going to be her manager, or something, and take her money. It was the beginning of something that could have been fabulous because we really liked each other." Sad, isn't it? Tim 8-)Yes, it is sad. Thanks for your research and info. Tim. ???I really appreciate all that you have contributed and your knowledge of the C's .
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Post by Rick Henry on Aug 28, 2005 20:31:06 GMT -5
It was rumored that Karen was dating Alan Osmond. I remember reading something about it in the entertainment section of the newspaper. Somebody had written in with the question if KC and AO were really dating. I don't remember too well but I believe they answered that it was a rumor.
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Post by Moe on Aug 28, 2005 23:57:53 GMT -5
I think Karen needed someone like Terry Ellis in her life. They seemed to truly love each other and he seemed stong enough to take on Agnes and was a friend to Richard.
I think before this, or any relationship, Karen needed to get away from her family. I come from a close knit family and you don't realize how it can control you until you get away from them. I don't mean permanently, but stop relying on them for the day to day things. Checking in once every week or two is plenty. Once that cord is broken, you grow up and look at things differently, not in a family content only. Since I left the nest, I certainly have changed-not bad or good, just changed. A brother-in-law once told me recently how hard it is to be married into our family. I totally understood his point of view.
I think Karen's family, though well meaning, played too big a part in her life, especially her adult life.
my thoughts...
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