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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:43:37 GMT -5
 Hi all, at the request of several of you I am moving part of the "Favorites" thread to this thread about Karen's drumming. I am doing this by posting everybody's posts as a "quote". Enjoy. Rick. I do not know how much of Offerings drumming is considered jazz influenced but I did notice Karens drumming style changed over time (Play Offering and Now And Then listening to the drumming and you'll know what I mean) I really missed her early drumming style whether it be on Offering or the early pre Carpenter incarnations (Like Ice Tea or Caravan for instance). I understand why it had to change but still miss the early drumming style of Kaens.  
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:44:31 GMT -5
 Yes, Karen's drumming is different..., with age, Karen got more and more delicate when playing the drums(also, when singing)..., but, also, the songs are very different if you compare *Offering* to *Now And Then*.
Good remark, enigma.  [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300]  [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow] |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:45:19 GMT -5
Karen's voice in some ways did become more delicate as the years progressed. :)Although by 1975 her voice was full bloom. She sang with power, grace, and soul. Her pitch, tone, and range were all very well refined. I don't think of her drumming as becoming delicate, but cultured and intricate. And maybe A&M put some restrictions on how she should play. Like you Enigma I do love Karen's early drum work. Though she really did some excellent drumming on "This Masquerade" (great jazz patterns on that one)and "Please Mr. Postman". As for jazz drum patterns on "Offering", definitely on "All I Can Do". The entire song was set on a timing similar to Dave Brubeck's "Take Five". Although much of Karen's drum work is jazz influenced as her main drumming influence comes from jazz greats of the 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's. |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:46:19 GMT -5
I have to disagree with that... I have a video of Karen doing a drum solo in 1968 and she is younger and raw with the drums..., after 1973 she was really more delicate with the drums, she could hit them, but, her playing(and voice) went with her personality..., raffined and delicate.
..., as for A&M restrictions..., it doesn't match with what Richard wanted.
..., how could they would've like Karen to be more soft when Richard wanted the opposite?
..., ' just my opinion. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow] |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:47:13 GMT -5
I guess what I'm trying to say is they were making a slick commercial pop album and Karen's drum work had to reflect this tyle. The earlier work was a more gutsy style (as in "All I Can Do" or "Your Wonderful Parade"). On songs like "This Masquerade" or "Our Day Will Come" a more refined (intricate) drum style is appropriate. I wasn't referring to them wanting her to play softer but to play in a style more suited to style of music they were producing. By 1973 Karen's drumming skills really advanced quite a bit. She was quite a sharp drummer from the beginning and continued to grow and improve as time moved on. As for the terms intricate and delicate - I think we both mean the same thing just using different words to get our point across.  |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:48:23 GMT -5
Ok my post was not really designed to insight debate over how Karens drumming style changed but just that there is a difference and that I miss her earlier style of drumming. Since the subject is open to the floor I will give you my take on the whole thing. Karens drumming style was always soft as was her voice I admit that on the Offering album it sounded louder and appeared that Karen was hitting the drums harder and yes it did seem to get softer but that was more a reflection of the change in musical direction than anything else. Richard himself said that Karen was always a soft drummer and singer and that he often had to turn the mics up when producing her to get her heard whether it was her singing or her drumming. Since he was there I have to believe what he says to be true thats the basis I use for my view. The drumming style change because they brought Hal Blaine on board to do the drumming on the studio tracks after Offering and he had a pop style of drumming due to all the hits he had drummed on previously. The tracks that Karen did also had to be more pop and less jazz oriented for album consistancy thats what was selling at the time. This especially became evident when the single Close To You was a smash and pretty much left little doubt as to where the sound was going to go. So I believe Karens drumming did not get softer, delicate or more intricate it just went to a more pop direction and less jazz oriented. I do agree it did get better as time went by however. I do not know if this even relates to what has been said but its my take on this subject. |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:49:02 GMT -5
Ok, I don't want the posts to go too far from the topic, but, it's interesting..., Dave, where are you?
Two things..., the songs did go in a more pop direction, but, to me, not Karen's drumming..., she was just more delicate(just like her physical appearance).
..., also, I think a good reason why Richard used studio drummers is because he wanted to save time and let Karen concentrate on the vocal sessions..., 'cause Hal Blaine is not necessary a harder hitter(or more Pop) on the drums..., listen to his drumming with Steely Dan, he can be pretty jazzy(he was versatile). Richard had too choose someone who could simulate Karen's drumming style because Karen was still the one who played the songs live.
..., Cubby O'Brien was different. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow] |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:49:46 GMT -5
I recall reading (I think it was in the Ray Coleman book) that Richard employed a studio drummer because he wanted beefier drum sound than Karen could provide. He stated that Karen was just a little lady and couldn't hit the drums with as much force as Hal Blaine could. I also remember reading (once again I beleive it was in the Coleman book) that Karen would teach Hal her drum patterns for each song. Thus the drum work on the albums would sound exactly the same as what was heard in live performances. You are right Enigma, maybe Karen's drumming didn't become anymore intricate as her drumming from the very begininng was well developed. I also agree that her style did not become softer or more delicate, but just more so reflects the style of music they came to record after "Close To You" became a huge hit. I say this because if you listen to her drum work on the "Strike Up The Band Medley" from the "LIve At The Palladium" disc Karen displays a somewhat more aggressive side of her drum abilities, or anyway as aggressive as Karen could get. Also her drumming on "I Got Rhythm" is bit stronger - and wow she does a great job on this song. On a song like "Yesterday Once More" you just aren't going to do a marching band drum pattern or an off-beat jazz timing. A song like YOM calls for something more delicate and understated. p.s. Roland in to answer your question about Dave - he says he will peak in from time to time. |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:50:52 GMT -5
Yes that was somewhat of what I was saying when I referenced Richard. Hal Blaine also said in an interview that dispite the fact that Karen was a good drummer she lacked the knowledge of the technical side of studio drumming and Hal being somewhat of a veteren (he drummed on a number of #1 hits as well as Rolands credits) in the studio was the logical choice to help commercialise the Carpenters sound. Also according to Hal, Richard did not hire him ( Jack Daugherty and or A&M apparently did) he (Richard) and the Carpenter family were actually against the idea of having him drum because Karen was the drummer in the band and they felt she could do as good a job as Hal in the studio. Remember that Offering was considered a flop by commercial standards and in many interviews both Richard and Karen have said that they were desperate for a commercial breakthrough not just because of their perfectionism but fear that the label would drop them if they did not garner significantly higher sales which is another reason why they caved in and let Hal do alot of the drumming. I do think Roland has a point with the fact that it would be an asset to have a versetile drummer like Hal that could drum in different styles because the Carpenter delved in such a variety of musical styles when they made their records and a versetile drummer would definately be an asset and also easier for Karen to teach if she needed to. Rick I agree Karen was capable of hard agressive drumming but she was a small woman and I doubt she could sustain such a style for an entire concert or album she would likely damage the tendons in her hands and wrists and have to quit drumming alot sooner than she did (I know thats not why she quit drumming by the way) BTW Rick since this is off the topic can you possible place these posts on a new thread without deleting them as Roland said this is an interesting topic but does not fit in the favorites topic. Perhaps under the title Karens Changing Drumming Styles Thanks |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:51:53 GMT -5
Hey Roland, I'm here! You have a habit of catching me when I'm only able to watch what's happening, thanks to my BlackBerry, but unable to respond. Try as I might, I can't post from the BB. But, that's OK. I'm in the heavy traveling part of my service calendar now, having just gotten home from New York City. There are signs pointing to New Haven on Interstate 87, but that trip should happen in February. OK, here's my take on Karen's drumming abilities: We're caught in an "apples vs. oranges" situation here. It all depends upon the *style* of music we're talking about. Carpenters style music is derived from the "big band" style, with lush, complex instrumental overlays emphasizing Richard's musicianship, and showcasing Karen's vocals. Think Duke Ellington and Ella Fitzgerald. Now, listen to "Who Made Who", featured on the "Maximum Overdrive" movie soundtrack, performed by AC/DC. This is a song which is heavily dependant upon a strong percussive track, and lead and trailing guitar overlays, not unlike vocal overlays such as the C's favored. But what's the style, and could Karen play it? She was an accomplished drummer, World Rated #3 in 1973. This places her alongside such peers as Nigel Olsson, Elton John's drummer, and Charlie Watts, of the Rolling Stones. I have no doubt whatsoever of her skills and abilities. It's just that her vocal abilities overshadowed everything, including her brother. So, if we look at the recording devices of the time, it was much simpler (and cheaper) to record studio sessions at one shot using studio drummers. If memory serves me correctly, Prince was one of the first artists who has the ability to play practically any instrument, and who used the then-new digital recording techniques to record each instrument's track individually and combine them to create the finished recording. Peter Gabriel is another, and his ability to incorporate animation into his videos is still a benchmark years later. Phil Collins plays drums on his recordings, and uses drummers in live performances. Except when he was doing his "Big Band" tour. Then, he sat behind the drums and let the other musicians enjoy the spotlight. Back in the "old days", recording engineers had very few tools at their disposal during recording sessions. Nowadays, everything is digitized, and can be "massaged" to achieve the desired effect. But even on Karen's solo album there are no heavily percussive tracks. That would've strayed too close to the "disco" that Richard begged her to avoid. Besides, Karen didn't play drums on any of those tracks, did she? |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:52:29 GMT -5
Very interesting, Dave.
It's a thing that comes to mind, once in a while... A Karen Carpenter solo album without Karen playing the drums on it.
..., Hmmm..., strange..., very strange. ;D [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow] |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:53:15 GMT -5
You raise a very good question, Chief Inspector Clouseau! Why indeed did Karen record her solo album and not play drums on any track? Only Phil Ramone knows the answer to that question, I believe. But realistically, there are time pressures and money pressures, and from what I have read the album went way over time and budget. If she had been encouraged by her support mechanism, and the album had done well commercially, I'd bet that Karen would've tried to play on the followup album. Or, better yet, Rick can ask Liberty this question. Were there any times between takes when Karen unwound by playing drums a bit? |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 8, 2005 20:57:51 GMT -5
Dave you bring up some good points. I'm certain if Karen wanted to really pound on the drums and play along on an AC/DC song she'd be able to do it. Though as Enigma stated she was a small woman. I don't think she'd be able to keep that sort of energy up for an entire live performance. In 1970 Paul McCartney played all the instruments and sang all vocals (with the exception of a few vocal harmonies by Linda) on his first solo album titled "McCartney". Though, I don't think he's the first artist to accomplish this feat. I think there was someone in the 60's - maybe it was Donovan. I'll have to check this out. Just a note about Nigel Olsson (Elton John's drummer). I know his ex-wife Shanda. she's a lovely lady and she took a few of my Elton John albums and also the few Nigel Olsson singles I have so he could autograph them. I had an opprotunity to meet him, but was unable to make it. Shanda has said that Karen Carpenter was a real singer, one of the greats. She also mentioned Dusty Springfield in the same conversation. About the Karen Carpenter solo album without Karen playing drums. I always thought that was somewhat odd also. but then if you really think about it. I don't think Karen had enough energy at this point in time to do vocals and also spend that extra time in the studio to record drum tracks. As you recall Liberty DeVitto mentioned that during the recording of "Rmember When Lovin' took All Night", Karen passed out. I do think that if Karen would have been healthier she may have played drums on a few tracks or possibly played drums on a second or third solo album. Though at this point I think it all had to do with her health.
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Post by karen69roland on Jan 9, 2005 5:34:54 GMT -5
*Just a note..., for those who are reading the previous posts for the first time...
Since those posts were *kind of* moved by Rick, my posts don't include the precise quotes I was refering to..., for example, if I was disagreeing with something, it wasn't with everything.
Thanks. [glow=red,2,300][/glow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow][shadow=red,left,300]Roland Chayer[/shadow][shadow=red,left,300] [/shadow]
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Post by enigma on Jan 9, 2005 8:14:43 GMT -5
I am only using the relevant part of your Quote to my response Rick so do not think I am misquoting you. Rick that is true but there is also something that Phil Ramone, Karens solo album producer, said that would shed a little light on things and his story goes like this. Phil and Karen had come early into the studio and Karen was looking at the drum kit and turned to Phil and said "I guess I will never be playing those thing again" to which Phil asked her "why do you say that" Karens reply was something like they make my butt bigger. This statement tells me of Karens state of mind at the time and just how far in the grips of her disease that Karen was it was robbing her of her desire to do what she like to do so much and that was drum. So though her physical health was a factor her mental state seemed to be more of a determinant as to why she did not drum on her solo record. As for the future she did do some percussion work on the Made In America album (I forget which track(s) she played on) and indicated to those around her a desire to play the drums again. This fact plus the fact that Karen was getting treated for her disease and seemed to be getting a bit better indicate to me she would be playing the drums again whether on a solo project or a future Carpenters record. &^ *% |
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Post by karen69roland on Jan 9, 2005 9:45:38 GMT -5
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 9, 2005 9:53:27 GMT -5
I am only using the relevant part of your Quote to my response Rick so do not think I am misquoting you. Rick that is true but there is also something that Phil Ramone, Karens solo album producer, said that would shed a little light on things and his story goes like this. Phil and Karen had come early into the studio and Karen was looking at the drum kit and turned to Phil and said "I guess I will never be playing those thing again" to which Phil asked her "why do you say that" Karens reply was something like they make my butt bigger. This statement tells me of Karens state of mind at the time and just how far in the grips of her disease that Karen was it was robbing her of her desire to do what she like to do so much and that was drum. So though her physical health was a factor her mental state seemed to be more of a determinant as to why she did not drum on her solo record. As for the future she did do some percussion work on the Made In America album (I forget which track(s) she played on) and indicated to those around her a desire to play the drums again. This fact plus the fact that Karen was getting treated for her disease and seemed to be getting a bit better indicate to me she would be playing the drums again whether on a solo project or a future Carpenters record. Many good points there enigma. Thank you for the insights. I do believe both the mental and physical factors prevented her from playing on the solo album. Could also be Phil Ramone may have wanted to keep the nucleus of Billy Joel's band together for this project (nontheless it's a great album). I agree that there were indicators that Karen wanted to play again and had she regained her health I'm certain she would have. |
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Post by Rick Henry on Jan 9, 2005 21:30:56 GMT -5
You folks expanded upon my drift, which was to take Karen in her prime, 1973, and go from there. I tried to avoid the inevitable with my comparison, but, it's there nevertheless. Playing drums makes her butt bigger?!! Picture this...you walk into the studio, and Karen, seated behind the drums, asks "Hey Enigma, do these drums make my butt look fat?" You are too funny Dave.  |
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